Why I keep hammering the Carol Kaye pick method

[SGD Lutherie]

People dismiss me sometimes when I talk about Carol Kaye's pick method preventing these injuries, but there's no doubt in my mind that Wetton's CTS was brought on by playing bass with a pick like guitarists. Guitar strings are thin and wussy. Bass strings are thick and manly. You can't play pick bass like a guitar. Sure, a lot of you have been getting away with it. Wetton got away with it for 40 years. I managed to go for 25. I was on the verge of developing it. Within 10-15 seconds, my hand would ache like crazy while I used a pick, so naturally I dropped it and played fingers only for a few years, but I missed the attack of a pick in some songs and wanted to do it again, so I learned Carol Kaye's pick method.

As a bass player who has used a pick for about 30 years, I wanted to comment. I'm not sure what Carol does.. is it the anchoring that's in question? I semi anchor. It's a combination of my wrist hanging over the body and my ring and little fingers touching the body, but I do move my hand to more of a floating position at times. I used to use her picks back in the 70's. I found them too small however, and switched to standard sized Fender heavy and extra heavy picks. Now I use the purple 1.14mm Dunlop Tortex picks. You are correct that you must not use medium picks! It robs you of speed and control and sounds thin and wimpy.

I think she's a bit to strict in how to position your hand. Robert Fripp is the same way, though I can't argue with his technique! He doesn't anchor at all. He also doesn't pick from the wrist as much as the forearm.

I generally hold my pick with my thumb, index and middle fingers. I also play guitar, and I hold it exactly the same way. Remember that Carol Kaye, as well as Joe Osborn started out as guitarists. So I'd suppose that was her picking technique on guitar. The rest of the stuff about the mute, etc., is a bit out of style.

I don't use the pick any differently between guitar and bass. I generally always start with an upstroke. I will very often use all down strokes on bass because it sounds better for certain songs. Same is true on guitar. Similarly, when playing with my fingers on bass I'll pluck the string with only one finger, generally my index, but sometimes my middle. I do that because it sounds more even. I switch to two fingers for fast parts.

If you hand hurts or is cramping when using a pick, that's generally a sign that you are squeezing the pick too hard. You have to relax your grip and little. When I started playing with a pick, I had been playing with my fingers for a few years. I liked plucking the strings hard to get them to snap. You can hear Stanley Clarke doing that on a lot of his solos. Also listen to Wetton on the 70's KC stuff. He plucked VERY hard. So I started hitting the strings pretty hard with the pick. I used to break the tips off of heavy picks, and also break strings. I don't play anywhere that hard anymore.

I played exclusively with a pick for almost 20 years and then in '89 switched to my fingers. I do tend to pluck the strings hard with my fingers, and that has been causing me some RSI problems lately since I have been gigging a lot. So I'm trying to pluck the strings with less force. But this has also lead me to going back to using a pick. I have actually had my hand cramp so bad playing with my fingers that I had to switch to a pick mid song!

Playing with a pick causes me no discomfort at all. I'm surprised about Wetton because I have always known him to be a finger style player. All that stuff he did with Crimson was fingers. The first time I saw him use a pick was with Asia. I'm sure his issues are from finger style plying, and from plucking too hard. I say that based on my recent RSI issues. Him playing with a pick is because he can't play with his fingers any more, not because of palm muting, etc.

I consider this to be proper pick technique. I notice I was using two fingers to hold the pick instead of three. You can't see the picking hand too much, but it's not anchored in one spot. If I didn't like the tone from fingers so much I'd stick to using a pick.

 

[Terracite]

Physics.

F=mg

More mass means more force. And if you use more M, you don't need as much G to reach the same F.

F(orce) = m(ass) x g(accelleration of gravity) ?

If you are dropping picks on the strings this would apply perfectly. I'm sure you meant F=ma.

A soft pick, applied to a string with the same force (mass x acceleration) as a stiff pick should produce the same string deflection, and therefore the same volume of sound.

The mass of your hand holding a thick pick vs. the mass of your hand holding a thin pick is negligable. So m isn't the answer.

However, because a thin pick flexes more, your hand must move more to produce the same force. Or, the motion required to produce an equal force is greater with a thin pick.

I'm a natural digger, so my thinking was to keep on digging, but with a thinner pick for less stress on the hand. What I interpret Jimmy is advocating in his response to me, was economy of motion. (Not trying to put words in your mouth Jimmy, correct me if I'm wrong.) Bottom line: Jimmy and Carol suggest using a thick pick, so I went out and bought some thick picks and I'll give them an honest try.

Sorry for nerding up the thread.

 

[Terracite]

Beginner Bass:

I just read my post and realized it came off a bit hostle. That wasn't my intent. I appreciate all help.

 

[sammyfallen]

I've been using the carol kaye method for well over 10 years and did not know it. I have VERY long arms so this method came natural to me. I always wonder why people that play with picks have such bizarre hand troubles, i guess it comes down to improper technique...

 

[JimmyM]

F(orce) = m(ass) x g(accelleration of gravity) ?

If you are dropping picks on the strings this would apply perfectly. I'm sure you meant F=ma.

A soft pick, applied to a string with the same force (mass x acceleration) as a stiff pick should produce the same string deflection, and therefore the same volume of sound.

The mass of your hand holding a thick pick vs. the mass of your hand holding a thin pick is negligable. So m isn't the answer.

However, because a thin pick flexes more, your hand must move more to produce the same force. Or, the motion required to produce an equal force is greater with a thin pick.

I'm a natural digger, so my thinking was to keep on digging, but with a thinner pick for less stress on the hand. What I interpret Jimmy is advocating in his response to me, was economy of motion. (Not trying to put words in your mouth Jimmy, correct me if I'm wrong.) Bottom line: Jimmy and Carol suggest using a thick pick, so I went out and bought some thick picks and I'll give them an honest try.

Sorry for nerding up the thread.

no problem.

i don't know that it's economy of motion, although i suppose it could be interpreted that way. but economy of motion suggests to me actual movement rather than the strength used in that movement. and you don't necessarily have to move more to add strength. but it's probably 6 of one and half a dozen of the other...if you're not having to use as much hand strength to get the same amount of torque on the pick, it's more economical.

 

[JimmyM]

I played exclusively with a pick for almost 20 years and then in '89 switched to my fingers. I do tend to pluck the strings hard with my fingers, and that has been causing me some RSI problems lately since I have been gigging a lot. So I'm trying to pluck the strings with less force. But this has also lead me to going back to using a pick. I have actually had my hand cramp so bad playing with my fingers that I had to switch to a pick mid song!

Playing with a pick causes me no discomfort at all. I'm surprised about Wetton because I have always known him to be a finger style player. All that stuff he did with Crimson was fingers. The first time I saw him use a pick was with Asia. I'm sure his issues are from finger style plying, and from plucking too hard. I say that based on my recent RSI issues. Him playing with a pick is because he can't play with his fingers any more, not because of palm muting, etc.

I consider this to be proper pick technique. I notice I was using two fingers to hold the pick instead of three. You can't see the picking hand too much, but it's not anchored in one spot. If I didn't like the tone from fingers so much I'd stick to using a pick.

your pick technique actually looks pretty solid imho. no wonder you don't have problems playing with a pick. killer playing, btw.

but the proof that playing by the bridge with a cocked wrist will cause injury is there. if you don't believe wetton has cts from it, there's cliff williams, jay bentley from bad religion, me...i could probably find more, too. cliff and jay both wear braces on their wrists. i'm sure it's possible to develop problems from fingerstyle if you overdo it, but it's way more likely to have some sort of problems if you use improper pick technique. to hear carol talk, it's guaranteed. i don't know if i would go that far, but it sure happened to me, and it sure happened to cliff and jay.

 

[ishouldbeking]

just stumbled onto this thread... i'm another one that falls into the camp of 'been doing it all along'. it's pretty fascinating, really. all this time i thought i was doing something weird, because my playing looks pretty weird compared to those that clamp their hand down at the bridge, but this always felt much more natural. in actuality i tend to do a lot of different things, and i'll move my hand around a bit when i play. there are times that call for a cutting note hit hard up by the bridge so i'll slide over and hit one, but i rarely lock in and play down there. with my rickenbacker, i'll use the bridge pickup mount (not the cover, that thing was in the way so it had to go) as a guide, and i'll often anchor my hand to that loosely, but its never a strict thing. glad to know i'm not the only weirdo though!

 

[SGD Lutherie]

your pick technique actually looks pretty solid imho. no wonder you don't have problems playing with a pick. killer playing, btw.

Thanks!

but the proof that playing by the bridge with a cocked wrist will cause injury is there. if you don't believe wetton has cts from it, there's cliff williams, jay bentley from bad religion, me...i could probably find more, too. cliff and jay both wear braces on their wrists. i'm sure it's possible to develop problems from fingerstyle if you overdo it, but it's way more likely to have some sort of problems if you use improper pick technique. to hear carol talk, it's guaranteed. i don't know if i would go that far, but it sure happened to me, and it sure happened to cliff and jay.

Yes, you have to watch the way you bend you wrist. Same is true when typing on a keyboard. You want the wrist bending down, not up.

My point about Wetton is the guy NEVER played with a pick... he played fingerstyle for many many years. I wasn't even aware he switched to a pick. I don't know a single recording he did with a pick, though I haven't listened to him since after UK. So if he did damage to his tendons, I think it was from years of very hard plucking with fingers. Listen to the 70's King Crimson stuff, especially the live tracks.

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All the pictures of him playing with a pick are fairly recent, and the thumb pick even more recent. So his issues were not from years of playing with a pick, because he didn't.

He probably switched to a pick to avoid the RSI pain, and of course from using poor hand posture made matters worse. I had to make a conscious effort to not pluck hard with my fingers after my index finger went into a crazy cramp and caused my hand to bend all up at rehearsal one day! It left my hand useless for fingerstyle for a while, and it still causes some pain from time to time. Its been a few months now and it's getting better.

One of the guitarist in my band recently had operations for carpal tunnel syndrome on both hands. So in many cases it's not from picking.

Regarding Carol, I think I mentioned this before, but we used to exchange a lot of email in the mid 90's. She sent me a huge envelope with all her old scores and studio logs and lesson sheets, and some picks.

I was working on a light weight bass for her that I was going to give her at NAMM, but due to unexpected personal issues never made it out there.

The prototype bass ended up a fretless.

 

[emor]

I haven't carefully read the entire thread so sorry if this has been covered, but one important aspect of Carol's technique is the use of downstrokes for down beats and upstrokes for upbeats.

I had some of Carol's books when I first started playing and must have known this at one time, but somebody on this forum reminded me of it awhile back. "Fingerstyle" remains my technique of choice, but as a sightreading aid using a pick makes a lot of sense.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

I haven't carefully read the entire thread so sorry if this has been covered, but one important aspect of Carol's technique is the use of downstrokes for down beats and upstrokes for upbeats.

Some people prefer to start on an upstoke. That always felt more natural to me, and later I found out that Robert Fripp did the same thing. It doesn't really matter as far as technique, but the important thing is to alternate your strokes. I'm sure Carol teaches what she learned and what feels good to her.

However, it is often better to use two downs and an up, etc., depending on the passage you are playing. If you were doing something like a paradiddle for instance, it makes more sense to pick D-U-DD-U-D-UU, but you can do it with all alternate strokes.

And often all down strokes is the way to go. Playing the Ramones doesn't sound good with alternate picking. As long as you are not straining yourself, or causing discomfort, you are OK.

 

[JimmyM]

david, you haven't read the rest of the thread. i did this once before when someone else tried to tell me he never used a pick, and here's evidence that he did, indeed use a pick back then, and did, indeed, use it like a guitarist:



looks someone didn't really do their research yet again, eh?

also, it LOOKS better to use downstrokes when playing ramones songs, but if you practice alternate picking as i did, you would never be able to tell the difference between playing all downstrokes and alternating blindfolded. that's an old wives' tale spread by musicians who weren't as good on up strokes as down strokes.

and for the life of me, i can't figure out a single scenario where you would you ever want to paradiddle on the bass

 

[SGD Lutherie]

david, you haven't read the rest of the thread. i did this once before when someone else tried to tell me he never used a pick, and here's evidence that he did, indeed use a pick back then, and did, indeed, use it like a guitarist:

:

What sort of tone were you going for in Crimson?
Being that I was sort of balancing lead and support roles, I went with a sound that was quite sharp and ringing. It came courtesy of my fingers, sometimes a pick, my ’61 P-Bass, Rotosound strings, a Hiwatt amp, and a cheap little Italian wah-wah/fuzz pedal. At the time, [Yes bassist] Chris Squire and I were really into the outrageous bass tone that Ace Kefford got with the Move; it was like the bottom strings on a piano. That’s what we were going after.

What’s the current status of that? (hand problems)

Still not great, I’m afraid. It has been almost two years since I was diagnosed with carpal tunnel syndrome. It’s a swelling of the casing around the nerves in my hand, causing them to be trapped. I had an operation a few months after diagnosis to relieve the pressure, but it hasn’t really helped. I need to have more surgery; I may have originally waited too long to treat it. My doctor said most cases like mine are among cellists because of the angle they hold their right hands at, to bow. For me, it started with a numb, pins-and-needles feeling, and now it can be painful and achy, quite unpleasant. I can’t even hold my phone, much less a pick. So we tape a thumb pick on my right thumb, and I can pretty much play only downstrokes. Fortunately, being a lefty who plays right-handed, I’m able to fret the notes with my strong hand. Ultimately, this injury causes the muscles in the hand to wither, so my recommendation, if you discover symptoms, is to seek medical advice immediately.

Also I'm not sure what you mean my "like a guitarist". Proper pick technique is proper pick technique. Carol is a guitarist, and I'm sure she used a pick the same way on guitar. Robert Fripp uses a pick the same way as I do.

When I play guitar I hold my pick the same as with bass. I use the same heavy picks too. Sometimes I us a heavier pick on guitar. I am aware that most guitarists have poor technique when it comes to flat picking.

also, it LOOKS better to use downstrokes when playing ramones songs, but if you practice alternate picking as i did, you would never be able to tell the difference between playing all downstrokes and alternating blindfolded. that's an old wives' tale spread by musicians who weren't as good on up strokes as down strokes.

You are assuming I can't alternate pick? I like you, so I wont take it as a swipe... but I stared playing with a pick in 1972. I actually started playing with a felt pick in 1970, because the book I had said to use one. That was considered proper bass technique when the book was written (might have been a Mel Bay book, I don't remember). My older brother showed me how bass players used their two fingers, so I started doing that. I switched back to a pick when I got into Yes and all that stuff.

Back then you couldn't tell I was using a pick. I could even slap with one. The only reason I stopped using a pick was because I wanted a darker rounder tone.

All down strokes sound different if you are hitting the strings hard. When you down stroke hard you are pushing the string down towards the body. You cannot upstoke and slam on the strings. Clearly, it's not my typical playing style. I alternate pick.

At the same token, when I play finger style, I predominantly use one finger so that every note sounds the same. This is especially true of playing 1/8 note patterns.

and for the life of me, i can't figure out a single scenario where you would you ever want to paradiddle on the bass

It's a good exercise! I used to do that all the time for string skipping. You do the left hand part on the lower octave and the right hand part on the upper. It's also real handy for playing My Sharona!

 

[THand]

Also I'm not sure what you mean my "like a guitarist". Proper pick technique is proper pick technique. Carol is a guitarist, and I'm sure she used a pick the same way on guitar. Robert Fripp uses a pick the same way as I do.

I hate to jump in but this is REALLY wrong info, as I am sure Jimmy can attest as well. Yes she is a guitarist, but she STRESSES the importance of not approaching picking (or bass in general) as a guitar player.

She has a very specific technique for picking, and I'm sorry but, it doesn't sound like you are as familiar with it as you may think.

 

[JimmyM]

David, a direct quote from you:

"My point about Wetton is the guy NEVER played with a pick...he played fingerstyle for many many years. I wasn't even aware he switched to a pick. I don't know a single recording he did with a pick, though I haven't listened to him since after UK."

However, you do make a point about the "like a guitarist" phrase. So I won't use that phrase anymore.

But you absolutely can slam on the strings using upstrokes. You don't even need to expend much energy to do it if you pick by the neck. But let's assume you can't...I would rather not lose the use of my hand and have to have surgeries and sacrifice a slight bit of the tone I'm looking for. Not that I feel like I'm sacrificing at all, but you know what I mean.

And no, that wasn't a slam on you. It was a slam on people who listen with their eyes, though. Blindfolded you could never tell a difference.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

I hate to jump in but this is REALLY wrong info, as I am sure Jimmy can attest as well. Yes she is a guitarist, but she STRESSES the importance of not approaching picking (or bass in general) as a guitar player.

She has a very specific technique for picking, and I'm sorry but, it doesn't sound like you are as familiar with it as you may think.

No, I have not studied anything about her pick technique. I am familiar with it from the info she sent me, but I have my own technique which doesn't fit into her technique. I thought it was interesting, and probably disagreed with much of it. But I have always been a big fan of hers, and she knows that.

I do approach playing guitar and bass very differently, but I do hold and use the pick the same way.

 

[JimmyM]

actually i think other than angling your pick a little (at least that's what it looks like to me in your vid), you do the carol kaye thing pretty much to the letter.

 

[JimmyM]

also, i just noticed this (sorry to run off at the keyboard)...i don't know why i never noticed it before, but sure enough, it proves my original theory about what caused it. from mr. wetton himself:

"My doctor said most cases like mine are among cellists because of the angle they hold their right hands at, to bow."

i don't see him angling his right hand with fingers. i do see it with a pick, though.

 

[THand]

No, I have not studied anything about her pick technique. I am familiar with it from the info she sent me, but I have my own technique which doesn't fit into her technique. I thought it was interesting, and probably disagreed with much of it. But I have always been a big fan of hers, and she knows that.

I do approach playing guitar and bass very differently, but I do hold and use the pick the same way.

10-4.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

David, a direct quote from you:

"My point about Wetton is the guy NEVER played with a pick...he played fingerstyle for many many years. I wasn't even aware he switched to a pick. I don't know a single recording he did with a pick, though I haven't listened to him since after UK."

OK I stand corrected! Never was a strong word. My point was that most of his career was spent playing finger style. Certainly the length of time he spent using a pick was much less than with his fingers. I get tingling numb fingers playing fingerstyle, but not playing with a pick at all, since I am not moving my fingers.

However, you do make a point about the "like a guitarist" phrase. So I won't use that phrase anymore.

But you absolutely can slam on the strings using upstrokes. You don't even need to expend much energy to do it if you pick by the neck.

When you down stroke hard, on an angle, you push the string into the frets. It makes a clanging sound. You hear this on Yes and Wetton era Crimson recordings. If you up pick strong, you are not pushing the string into the frets. It's either parallel, or you are lifting it.

Certainly you can alternate pick and have the up and down sound the same, but I'm talking about a particular technique that was used a lot with prog rock players, particuallly on Ricks. You can also hear it on Kimono My House by Sparks with Martin Gordon on bass.

But let's assume you can't...I would rather not lose the use of my hand and have to have surgeries and sacrifice a slight bit of the tone I'm looking for. Not that I feel like I'm sacrificing at all, but you know what I mean.

I have been playing 42 years. I haven't had any major RSI injuries, so I must be doing something right. The only issues I have had were in the last few months from a new band I'm playing with that has two guitarists, and one is VERY loud! So that made me pluck harder than I should have to be heard, and I hurt my hand.

And no, that wasn't a slam on you. It was a slam on people who listen with their eyes, though. Blindfolded you could never tell a difference.

I agree, and it's the same thing about playing bass with a pick in general. Paul McCartney never sounded like he was playing with a pick, except the beginning to baby Your a Rich Man, which has to be one of the best bass tones on record, ever!

And I feel it is Carol playing on Bernadette. It sounds like her percussive pick style. I picked her out from a Barbie commercial on a documentary about the doll. I asked her if that was her playing on it, and it was! She has a distinctive style.

Listen to these two tracks I did back in 1988. Is it a pick, or fingers? (it is a Rickenbacker though)

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Or this one:

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[SGD Lutherie]

also, i just noticed this (sorry to run off at the keyboard)...i don't know why i never noticed it before, but sure enough, it proves my original theory about what caused it. from mr. wetton himself:

"My doctor said most cases like mine are among cellists because of the angle they hold their right hands at, to bow."

i don't see him angling his right hand with fingers. i do see it with a pick, though.

That's true.

But i hurt my hand playing with my fingers.

Typing on a keyboard also does it. I think it's mostly from repetition of the same motion more than anything. Also Wetton is not a youngster. I'm not either. After while things tend to wear out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repetitive_strain_injury

Repetitive strain injury (RSI) (also known as repetitive stress injury, repetitive motion injuries, repetitive motion disorder (RMD), cumulative trauma disorder (CT), occupational overuse syndrome, overuse syndrome, regional musculoskeletal disorder) is an injury of the musculoskeletal and nervous systems that may be caused by repetitive tasks, forceful exertions, vibrations, mechanical compression (pressing against hard surfaces), or sustained or awkward positions.

And CTS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpal_tunnel_syndrome

Simply flexing the wrist to 90 degrees will decrease the size of the canal.

Causes

Most cases of CTS are of unknown causes, or idiopathic. Carpal Tunnel Syndrome can be associated with any condition that causes pressure on the median nerve at the wrist. Some common conditions that can lead to CTS include obesity, hypothyroidism, arthritis, diabetes, and trauma.[11]

Other causes of this condition include intrinsic factors that exert pressure within the tunnel, and extrinsic factors (pressure exerted from outside the tunnel), which include benign tumors such as lipomas, ganglion, and vascular malformation, and overuse factors.[12] It is unclear whether there is a close relationship between work and CTS or if it’s due to underlying medical problems.

Work related
The international debate regarding the relationship between CTS and repetitive motion in work is ongoing. The Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) has adopted rules and regulations regarding cumulative trauma disorders. Occupational risk factors of repetitive tasks, force, posture, and vibration have been cited. However, the American Society for Surgery of the Hand (ASSH) has issued a statement that the current literature does not support a causal relationship between specific work activities and the development of diseases such as CTS.

Now the guitarist in my band that has CTS also has diabetes. So Wetton might have RSI, or CTS, and if it's CTS it might not be from playing. RSI would indeed be from playing, and in my case it was the forceful exertions mixed with a little bending of the wrist. I say he has RSI, which is why the surgery didn't help. My guitarist has CTS, and the surgery (on both hands) did indeed help.

Having said all that, every time I see anyone, bassist or guitarist, using a thin or medium pick, with sloppy hand positions, I want to smack them with a wiffleball bat!