Why I keep hammering the Carol Kaye pick method

[JimmyM]

Just an update on my workings with the Kaye method.

I picked up an '74 EB-3 Lawsuit bass that I thought would sound great with a pick. I have moved up to a thicker pick and I have been working at a slow tempo with really great results. My attack is much more even and my wrists and fingers feel great after a few hours. I have been learning songs specifically for picking....

So, I think this (for me anyway) was time well spent.

picked up a new skill...i'd say so too, gregg. plus you got a nifty bass out of the deal

 

[SGD Lutherie]

used the heavy pick and played right below the neck, surprised how much faster i could play and how much longer i could play, pretty cool

It sounds better there too! That's the same location Swallow picks in.

I do most of my picking by the neck now, or a bit closer to the bridge. But not right by the bridge.

 

[kurtwash]

I read this thread a couple weeks ago when I was looking to change up my picking technique.

I wanted to change my technique for two reasons:
(1) My thumb would often get sore after long band rehearsals or practice sessions
(2) I was told the way I held the pick was inefficient

Now, I've been attempting to use the Carol Kaye picking method because I want speed as well as the fact that I want to be pain free, but it's been very difficult because I've actually never picked with my wrist per say, but rather I would move my thumb and index and middle fingers back and forth. Because I am double jointed I was able to have the pick literally "sit" on top of my thumb, stabilized by my two fingers (with my thumb being at a 90 degree angle). I actually never used my wrist at all, but rather bent the first knuckle in my fingers and moved my thumb back and forth.

Anyways, my problem is that now that I've switched to a wrist motion (which felt very difficult and awkward, and is still very slow in comparison), and begun holding my pick with the side of my index and thumb, I've begun experiencing pain in my index finger. It feels like when the pick hits the string, my finger is "flexing" in an unnatural way, and thus results in discomfort/pain after a short while of playing.

I'm just wondering if someone could help me troubleshoot this... it's been very hard to come as far as I have and I don't want to stop now.. I'm going to try even thicker picks (I use 1.1mm ones now.. do you think that's a viable solution?).

thanks for any help

 

[JimmyM]

man, that's really tough to diagnose without actually seeing you do it. i'm strictly guessing here, but maybe if you backed up your index finger with the middle finger it would help. also, if you're still moving your thumb and finger when you use a pick, stop it. that is death to your hand.

might help if you watched vids of carol doing it. www.bassplayer.com has one. youtube has a couple.

best thing to do, though, if you can, is shoot a vid of yourself playing and post it and maybe one of us can see what's wrong. i would recommend a teacher, but it's really hard to find a bass teacher who teaches pick technique.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

i'm strictly guessing here, but maybe if you backed up your index finger with the middle finger it would help. also, if you're still moving your thumb and finger when you use a pick, stop it. that is death to your hand.

I was thinking the same two things. The thumb and index fingers should not be moving, just the wrist. I noticed I have my middle finger either tucked behind the index, or also holding the pick. Also he might be gripping the pick too tightly, which can cause pain and cramping.

 

[raymondl3]

Try placing more of your thumb on the pick, closer to the "ball" of the thumb. That should eliminate the double joint option. That also helps me lock the pick into place. Try using 85% wrist, 10% forearm, and 5% finger flex in your strokes. The wrist method is the hardest at first but worth it in the long run. Also loosen up the wrist and try a little bend in the wrist sometimes, like the funk guitar player do. It's fun.

 

[badstonebass]

I have to say that I have found some of the points of this techinque to be untrue IME.

If I use a heavey pick I get Tennis Elbow. I have switched to lighter picks and they work very well.

IMO many of the problems associated with pick playing come from playing too hard. Turning up my amp and play with a lighter attack cured all of my ills.

Palm Muting for a WHOLE SET might cause a problem, but palm muting some passages won't do a thing. All of these issues are caused by REPETITION.

 

[JimmyM]

I have to say that I have found some of the points of this techinque to be untrue IME.

If I use a heavey pick I get Tennis Elbow. I have switched to lighter picks and they work very well.

for me, light picks = instant pain. for others i know, too. plus your elbow shouldn't even be involved in the process. the whole idea of using your wrist in a side to side motion is to keep your elbow from having to do it. still, i guess it's all connected, so you have to do what you have to do. but it does take a lot more work with a thin pick than a heavy, so nope, not untrue. just untrue in your case (for now).

IMO many of the problems associated with pick playing come from playing too hard. Turning up my amp and play with a lighter attack cured all of my ills.

Palm Muting for a WHOLE SET might cause a problem, but palm muting some passages won't do a thing. All of these issues are caused by REPETITION.

lighter attack = good.

palm muting...it takes approx 30 seconds for palm muting to send shooting pains into my hand. i agree that it's caused by repetition, but what is bass playing if not a whole lot of repetition?

anyway, you've found this stuff to be untrue for you. fair enough. but it isn't untrue for everyone.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

In holding a pick we have to be careful we don't enable the pinch feature of the hand. In pinching with the thumb and forefinger at their tips we enable a feature that allows us to pinch, this feature is not desirable in any long term use as it enables the thumbs muscle groups to work towards and against the forefinger.
The correct action is more like that of pretending to grab a childs nose. The difference is it is the pad of the thumb between the joint and the nail line that is used. The forefinger is bent across so the tip meets at this point to hold the pick. The forefinger cones across the thumb this will un-able the pinch with the pick and put the motion to the wrist.

When you hold anything in the tips of the pinch you allow the joints to move to "help" in movement, when the forefinger comes across as described those joints do not work so well so the wrist does more, as it should.

Below is the correct position, by that i mean more correct than a pinch one

Below is a pinch position, notice how the pick is in the tips, rather than being held as in the one above.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

In holding a pick we have to be careful we don't enable the pinch feature of the hand.

Absolutely correct.

Below is the correct position, by that i mean more correct than a pinch one

In my opinion that is too much pick showing. That allows the pick to move between your fingers, causing you to squeeze too hard.

I hold mine like this:

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Absolutely correct.



In my opinion that is too much pick showing. That allows the pick to move between your fingers, causing you to squeeze too hard.

I hold mine like this:

The amount of pick showing is a personal thing, its the position it is held in i would be more interested in, its about holding it against the thumb with the forefinger, rather than between the thumb and forefinger. I do not see enough pick player to comment on how much pick should be shown, but the mechanics of holding it are sound.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

The amount of pick showing is a personal thing, its the position it is held in i would be more interested in, its about holding it against the thumb with the forefinger, rather than between the thumb and forefinger. I do not see enough pick player to comment on how much pick should be shown, but the mechanics of holding it are sound.

But how much pick is extended is part of the mechanics! Too much pick and it's either poking below the strings, which is wasted motion, or your hand is too far from the strings. People use ramps when playing finger style to stop your fingers from extending too far past the string plane, though if they do that's bad technique IMHO. But this is the same idea, you don't want half the pick poking below the string plane.

Plus the more pick that is extending from your hand, the move leverage there is for the pick to bend in useless directions. It's the equivalent to playing with your fingers with a half inch of plastic taped to your fingertips. The less pick that shows, the stiffer it is.

 

[JimmyM]

i tend to agree with david on how much pick should be showing. but as long as you're not in pain, i don't think it really matters.

 

[Obese Chess]

first time reading straight thru this thread.
When I first started playing, I gravitated towards fingerstyle, but ended up playing with a pick because my band was writing fast punk tunes. I often found my hands or wrists hurting until I finally developed a way of playing that didn't hurt - nice to see it's also Carol Kaye's method!

 

[Fergie Fulton]

But how much pick is extended is part of the mechanics! Too much pick and it's either poking below the strings, which is wasted motion, or your hand is too far from the strings. People use ramps when playing finger style to stop your fingers from extending too far past the string plane, though if they do that's bad technique IMHO. But this is the same idea, you don't want half the pick poking below the string plane.

Plus the more pick that is extending from your hand, the move leverage there is for the pick to bend in useless directions. It's the equivalent to playing with your fingers with a half inch of plastic taped to your fingertips. The less pick that shows, the stiffer it is.

Again i do not know enough about pick styles. It is the position of the hand that allows how much contact the pick has with the string. Hand to deep the string contacts to much of the pick, hand to shallow and the pick has the chance to miss the string all together.

Like pick thickness it is a personal thing, so that will include the amount of bend that anyone player may or may not like in their technique. That may come from how much of the pick is shown, as said i do not know enough about the vagaries of the technique to comment on it, but the hold needs to be correct whatever the pick.
I would say that like using a drum stick, pressure is a hidden danger that is not seen but felt. Too tight and the technique suffers as the pick cannot "bounce" off the string, hence the reason of the position of contact near the neck...it is the place of least resistance and tension on the strings. So a player playing nearer the bridge may need some of that "bend" in the pick to negate the tension of playing there.

Again these are all vagaries of the technique, what one finds desirable another may not, and they can debate that for ever, and as a finger player i do not know enough about all the problems it may present only the mechanics involved.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

Again i do not know enough about pick styles. It is the position of the hand that allows how much contact the pick has with the string. Hand to deep the string contacts to much of the pick, hand to shallow and the pick has the chance to miss the string all together.

Read what I wrote. You don't want your hand far from the strings to keep the pick from going too deep. You lose control that way.

Like pick thickness it is a personal thing, so that will include the amount of bend that anyone player may or may not like in their technique. That may come from how much of the pick is shown, as said i do not know enough about the vagaries of the technique to comment on it, but the hold needs to be correct whatever the pick.

It may be a personal preference, but you shouldn't be using a flexible pick, especially on bass IMO. You are wasting energy, and you have to pick harder to get the same results, and you also get a thin "plinky" tone.

I would say that like using a drum stick, pressure is a hidden danger that is not seen but felt. Too tight and the technique suffers as the pick cannot "bounce" off the string, hence the reason of the position of contact near the neck...it is the place of least resistance and tension on the strings. So a player playing nearer the bridge may need some of that "bend" in the pick to negate the tension of playing there.

You don't want the pick to bounce off the string. You want to pluck the string and get the pick out of the way. You also don't need any "give", even if playing by the bridge. That's part of the reason why you don't want too much pick sticking out. You will not be able to pick fast and clean that way, as the pick will be flailing about.

Again these are all vagaries of the technique, what one finds desirable another may not, and they can debate that for ever, and as a finger player i do not know enough about all the problems it may present only the mechanics involved.

I used to be a classically trained tubist. You are not allowed to do things what ever way you feel when you play classical music. There are different methods, and you stick to one. You have to develop good technique though practice. Alternate picking is one of those kinds of things that you have to be disciplined about to have it work well. This is why I used to practice things like paradiddles.

I wanted to be able to pick every note cleanly. My inspiration was hearing John McLaughlin with Mahavishnu Orchestra for the first time. I wanted to play bass the way he played guitar. Many guitarists don't pick every note, and many of them are not very good at cross picking, even though they will be good players in general. I had written music that the guitarists I worked with had a hard time playing because they never practiced picking.

As an example, listen to the song Fracture by King Crimson. Amazingly difficult to play!

Here's a couple of people on YouTube doing reditions.

The first half

 

[badstonebass]

for me, light picks = instant pain. for others i know, too. plus your elbow shouldn't even be involved in the process.

Tennis "elbow" is involved with the hand and wrist and almost always is accompanied by wrist and hand pains.

anyway, you've found this stuff to be untrue for you. fair enough. but it isn't untrue for everyone.

Didn't mean any disrespect....just that "Carol Kayes Method" isn't the only way to fix the problem. When I started playing bass I had a TON of these problems. However lighter attack, Lighter strings, volume boost cured them all. I use her style for some tunes but it would be very limiting to use it for everything.

Stuffing foam under the bridge for muting is fine if you want that tone for a whole song...but what do you do when you want to change tone during the tune?? Rip it out quick during the chorus and then stuff it back in again for the verse??

 

[SGD Lutherie]

Stuffing foam under the bridge for muting is fine if you want that tone for a whole song...but what do you do when you want to change tone during the tune?? Rip it out quick during the chorus and then stuff it back in again for the verse??

I think that's more about what the tone of electric basses was back then. All Fender (and other) basses had mutes. That was the tone you heard on every record and TV. A lot of that was Carol. So what she's doing is showing you how to get her tone. That type of tone only applies to certain styles of music these days. Same is true of flatwounds without a mute. I have halfrounds on one bass (the one in the photos) for certain songs, but I can't use it for everything.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Read what I wrote.

I did and we it seems we must agree to disagree on some points.
Some of what you say is objective to the person using it.
Like i say i don't know enough about application of the technique because is is so much down to the person using it.

There is a range of use from the basic to the advanced, you it seems are at advanced if not beyond, but for most it is a general use in playing, not about developing it to virtuoso levels, even though they may, but its about playing without stress and pain and coping with what they want to play safely.

 

[mambo4]

I am a finger player but in my quest for tone I keep bumping up against my poor pick technique.
Discussions I find online are basically ALL TEXT, which is bad for clear understanding
because terms like up ,down, parallel , perpendicular , as well as anatomy like tip/pad/side of the thumb/finger
are all easily misinterpreted (for me) without some kind of visual aid.

So a huge Thanks to Fergie and SGD for FINALLY posting some pictures.
That , plus watching CK in the you tube bass player interview with carol has cleared up a lot of mud. Time to hit the wood shed.