Why I keep hammering the Carol Kaye pick method

[GreggBummer]

Lots of great things in that Carol Kaye video. Not just the stuff she is doing with her picking hand.

Scale notes being "traveling notes". The importance of chordal notes. Really, very good stuff.

Woodshed.

 

[FaithNoMan]

I use a lot of Carol's technique, esp with the thicker picks and NOT anchoring, but I also tend to play my Ric over the bridge pickup.

Keep in mind, a Ric's bridge pup is a LOT closer to the neck than a J bass' bridge pup - almost in a "P" position. It just feels natural and pain free that way, and the DR Lo-Riders are not as stiff as other hex cores(prefer them over Hi-Beams).

My biggest problem has always been the angle of my wrist on the fretting hand, as I have a ganglion cyst in that wrist, and anything less than "perfect straight wrist" is bound to eventually cause me discomfort....it may be why the slightly shorter scale and narrower neck of a Ric helps me.

Just some FYI..

 

[SGD Lutherie]

I used to play right over my Ric's bridge pickup as well.

 

[solszew]

Carol's "Bass DVD Course" demonstrates the pick technique pretty clearly, if you are willing to shell out for it. She's just started doing Skype lessons, too, I believe, which would be even better. She is a really good teacher. Anyway, the main things - keep the wrist flat, not arched, when you pick; rest the fleshy part under the the thumb lightly on the strings to help keep your place (except when playing the E string), rather than planting a pinkie, etc.; keep the movement of your right hand in time w/ your tapping left foot; don't aim for speed, go for tone and accuracy, and practice with a metronome with the beats set on 2 and 4.

 

[champbassist]

I started practicing this method primarily because of the problems I encountered picking mid tempo lines (say, 16ths@q=105-145 bpm), e.g. I Don't Wanna Be Me by Type O Negative (that this method works so well in a metal context is a testament to how useful it is ). I found I could do really fast or slow lines but the middle of the road ones were where I got stuck. I found this method really helpful straight off the bat, following the guidelines and Carol Kaye's style from the Bass Player mag interview on YT and pointers in this thread's OP

Also, has anybody looked at Al Di Meola's picking style? Picking (and many other) techniques on the guitar, often, aren't well suited to the bass, but I see Al's style is pretty similar to Carol Kaye's.

 

[pnut166]

I just picked up the bass and started playing without lessons. The "Kaye Method" sounds pretty much like what I do. That`s just what felt natural to me. I can`t imagine trying to anchor my hand and play.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

I just picked up the bass and started playing without lessons. The "Kaye Method" sounds pretty much like what I do. That's just what felt natural to me. I can't imagine trying to anchor my hand and play.

It's a very normal thing to support your picking hand on your pinky and ring finger. I find it's much easier to get the pick to the right string when playing quickly doing that, as opposed to having my right hand free floating. It works better for me for intricate parts. For simpler parts it doesn't matter as much, but I've been doing it so long it feels natural.

Arch top guitars have elevated pickguards for this reason, and the finger rest was below the strings on Fender basses for the same reason. Anchoring your right hand gives you a point of reference.

That's not to say you can't move your picking hand to different positions when playing.

I'm doing that in the Cogs-in-Cogs video on my YouTube channel, though you can't see that much of my right hand. But for most of it I'm resting on my ring and pinky fingers.

 

[JimmyM]

I started practicing this method primarily because of the problems I encountered picking mid tempo lines (say, 16ths@q=105-145 bpm), e.g. I Don't Wanna Be Me by Type O Negative (that this method works so well in a metal context is a testament to how useful it is ). I found I could do really fast or slow lines but the middle of the road ones were where I got stuck. I found this method really helpful straight off the bat, following the guidelines and Carol Kaye's style from the Bass Player mag interview on YT and pointers in this thread's OP

Also, has anybody looked at Al Di Meola's picking style? Picking (and many other) techniques on the guitar, often, aren't well suited to the bass, but I see Al's style is pretty similar to Carol Kaye's.

Actually, they are pretty well suited to the guitar, and a lot of guitarists, especially in jazz, will use it. Al's not dead-on because he does a lot of palm muting, which is a no-no for the Carol method on bass, but yeah, outsode of rock and pop styles, it's more common than you'd think. Roy Vogt mentioned this earlier in the thread, and sure enough, I check it out and he's right.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

Actually, they are pretty well suited to the guitar, and a lot of guitarists, especially in jazz, will use it. Al's not dead-on because he does a lot of palm muting, which is a no-no for the Carol method on bass, but yeah, outsode of rock and pop styles, it's more common than you'd think. Roy Vogt mentioned this earlier in the thread, and sure enough, I check it out and he's right.

And don't forget that Carol is a guitarist that plays bass. She's better known on bass, but started her career on guitar.

This is also true of Paul McCartney, Joe Osborn, and Ray Shulman, who are all excellent pick players.

 

[Demon_Hunter]

eek...never anchor your hand?!!?

I always anchor my hand on the bridge

 

[JimmyM]

eek...never anchor your hand?!!?

I always anchor my hand on the bridge

The reason for not anchoring your hand is because it puts your wrist at an angle that isn't conducive to a smooth back and forth motion that won't injure your hand eventually, plus it restricts your freedom of movement. And the reason for not playing at the bridge is because your strings are way tighter there, and your hand has to work harder to get any sound out, which also contributes to eventual injury.

 

[anonymous122511]

And the reason for not playing at the bridge is because your strings are way tighter there, and your hand has to work harder to get any sound out, which also contributes to eventual injury.

I'm really glad you've talked about the tension thing in your original post and throughout this thread. Coinciding with my moving to playing exclusively with a pick over the last couple of years has been my almost exclusive use of short scale basses during that time. I realize now that because of the lower string tension of a short scale it's been a natural if not completely conscious evolution. I mean I've always had a real serious thing for short scales but never has one been my definite main bass like that Landing Tele has become (please thank your wife for me).
I've also been going back and forth as to whether or not the ABG I'm gonna have built should be a short scale and now I'm definitely decided that it will be.

It's interesting to note that the great pick player Steve Swallow (who plays extra long scale basses) in a fairly recent interview talks about how he keeps moving his picking hand further forward and now plays way up the fingerboard a lot of the time. I'm too tired and brain dead to hunt that interview down now but I'm curious to go back and see if he mentions string tension. I do recall he talks about playing with a lighter touch which is something I'd definitely come to see works well with lower string tension. Balanced against that is Carol Kaye's criticism of Swallow for not getting as much power as she does. Both views make some sense to me though and I'm far from through considering the issue of touch and power.

 

[champbassist]

Actually, they are pretty well suited to the guitar, and a lot of guitarists, especially in jazz, will use it.

I actually meant to say that many conventional playing techniques used for guitar don't work with bass all that well (as you state with John Wetton's example in the OP). I can't see why CK method shouldn't work with guitar as well. And yes you're right about Al's muting thing, totally forgot about that

Edit: while we're at it, can someone tell me what advantages are offered by having one's fingers curled inwards while picking? My fingers don't stiffly stick out, but they don't curl in totally either.

 

[Essen]

I read the OP, and I do every thing it says not to doXD
I palm mute, I use dunlop jazz picks, and I pick at the bridge pu
Maybe I should try this method?

 

[JimmyM]

I read the OP, and I do every thing it says not to doXD
I palm mute, I use dunlop jazz picks, and I pick at the bridge pu
Maybe I should try this method?

Wouldn't hurt, and it might prevent injury down the road.

Champ, fingers curled/straight isn't so important as long as you're not making a tight fist. Some people can get them out of the way easier by curling, some by leaving them straight.

Jeff, I kind of thought that would be a mistake. I really wanted that bass but I couldn't swing it, but I'm glad you kept it because it really looks like a winner. Torin is the one who should be kicking himself

 

[JasonKain]

I'd say roughly 90% of my current playing is finger style, but I'm slowly integrating using a pick into my skill set more as time goes on and my taste slowly evolves. I've read through the early parts of the thread, but skipped a fair bit, so forgive me if this has been covered already.

When I play, I usually use a pick somewhere between .9 and 1.26, with the former being my current go-to. Anything lighter gives a bit too much snap to my ears, and anything thicker feels awkward in my hands. I usually alternate my strokes, but I tend to do sporadic bits of time in certain songs where I do straight downstrokes, usually something based on my feel for the songs and arrangements I'm working with. I also generally play somewhere just behind the P pickup on my bass, but ahead of the J pickup at the bridge location. Most of my playing does come from my wrist, but putting my playing under tight analysis shows I do throw my elbow into things on occasion.

I guess what I'm looking at is, how much flexibility is there with this? I know I'm young, and the problems develop over time, but it seems like I'm fairly close on most of the things I do, just not perfect on my technique. I also realize that pick is fairly new to me, and my technique with no teacher isn't going to be perfect, so I'm trying to figure out what I need to bring into line and what is just a stylistic choice.

I'm also looking at taping up my wrist to help keep my bass clean, as my forearms tend to sweat a lot when I get warm. Like, will soak through a paper towel wipe sweat. Considering I won't be doing it ultra-tight due to any injury or anything, it's mainly just an alternative wristband, is this something I should reconsider? I doubt it would cut down my wrist flexibility much, and my original thinking was that helping stabilize the wrist would actually prevent injury, but certain things I've read in here had me start questioning that.

 

[JimmyM]

Put it this way, Jason...you might be able to get away with some stuff. Some people have and continue to do so. But always be aware of any pains you may have, and try to work the Carol Kaye thing in practice as accurately as you can so you have a safety base to go to in case you get pains on the gig. And the wristband shouldn't hinder you but don't do it too tightly.

 

[stratovani]

Jimmy, I hope you'll read this, since it's been over a month since there was any activity in this thread. I recently went to Carol's website and I read the tip she gives about the correct way to hold and play with a pick (tip #26), and I decided to give it a try. I came to the realization that this is the way I've been playing guitar with a pick for all the years I've been playing guitar - flat wrist, never anchored (anchoring inhibits freedom of movement), holding the pick the way she describes it, etc.

The problem I've always had with using a pick for bass was the clackiness that I would get while striking the string. I would use a Dunlop Tortex .50mm pick - very light! - just so I wouldn't get that clackiness. Well, after reading tip #26, where at the end Carol suggests to "Remember to keep that right wrist flat and keep more bass turned on with your bass - playing with a pick adds a lot of high end to your sounds.", I tried turning down the treble, and the clackiness disappeared! I have a large array if picks, so the next thing I tried was experimenting with different shapes, thicknesses and materials of picks. I found that the pick that works best for me is the Dunlop Big Stubby 2mm pick. It's got the classic pick shape, with indentations on both sides which makes it easier to hold, and it's made of lexan, which combined with a bassier EQ setting means it has virtually no clackiness whatsoever. I also tried playing up closer to the neck where the strings have less tension, and that made playing with a pick a lot easier.

So, to sum up, a Dunlop Big Stubby 2mm pick, proper picking technique, EQ on the bassy side, and I'm in pick heaven! Thanks, Carol, and thanks, Jimmy!

 

[pbass2]

It's a quandary, as nobody wants to get injured, but to me it always comes down to the sound. I've been playing bass for 30 years, probably 50-60% of the time with a pick, and while I have tried Carol's method and use it sometimes, other times I simply have to hammer down by the bridge, palm mute, etc. to get the right tone. For example, I will use Carol's method on a P w/flats and foam mute when I need . . . well, the "Carol Kaye sound" (for lack of a better term. i.e., producers will ask for "retro cop show bass" and voilá--there you have it. But when I have to deliver certain rock pick tones I play back closer to the bridge--it sounds completely different due to the tension--no degree of EQ tweaking will change that.
But I DO keep my hand/wrist relaxed, use very heavy picks, avoid mounting my pinky on the bass(happens on occasion though), and wear my bass sort of in-between, height-wise--not too low, not too high either.
I also warm-up and stretch, and keep very physically fit which I think helps quite a bit too--variety of movement, and keeping up flexibility and muscle tone are important in fending off any kind of repetitive stress issues.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

flat wrist, never anchored (anchoring inhibits freedom of movement), holding the pick the way she describes it, etc.

I pick pretty much the way Carol does too. But I like to anchor for certain styles of playing. For me it aids in precision. I find it easier to do fast cross picking and arpeggios on guitar if I don't have to aim my pick. So I keep my hand in place and pivot my wrist. But that's just for certain things.

On bass I alternate between floating and anchored depending on what I'm playing. Even then, my anchoring is very loose. its more just resting my fingers on the bass. But it does help me tell where I am since I try to never look at my hands.

But I'm a big fan of Carol's, and even started using her picks back in the 70s, when I switched from finger style.

Check out the video of me playing Cogs in Cogs at my YouTube page for my version of Carol's method. You can't see a lot of my right hand, but you'll get the idea. I have my pinky resting lightly on the bass.