Why I keep hammering the Carol Kaye pick method

[SGD Lutherie]

I'll never figure that upstroke pick thing out. I've tried it and it's horribly awkward. Love the white suits, though

I often start passages on an upstroke instead of a down. Lately I use mostly all down strokes!

 

[JimmyM]

All downstrokes cause me enormous pain unless I'm playing a short scale bass, and then only for about 10 seconds am I pain free.

 

[Coop Soup]

Well hot damn. I use that technique and didn't even know it.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

All downstrokes cause me enormous pain unless I'm playing a short scale bass, and then only for about 10 seconds am I pain free.

I guess because when I play finger style I'm used to mostly using just my index finger. I like the way it sounds. So I find lately when I use a pick I do all downstrokes, unless I'm playing something tricky.

I never get any pain using a pick, but I do when playing with my fingers.

 

[Rickengeezer]

I do the "primary upstroke" thing also, pick supported by index and middle fingers...I typically anchor my ring finger against the G string (I use a 5er), which gives me a nice little elastic "pull" down for the downstroke. I have a pretty heavy duty callous on my ring finger as a result. Never really paid attention to it until someone commented to me that they'd never seen anyone play that way before. I later noticed watching a video that Will Lee seems to do something similar when he uses the pick, although unfortunately he does it a lot better than I.

 

[FaithNoMan]

Going back and watching Wetton vs someone like Chris Squire on bass with a pick, is like watching a ham-fisted player and a very graceful, gentle pick player.

Wetton just beat the living crap out of the basses he used, fingerstyle or pick, while Squire "coaxed" the tones out of his - even his more aggressive sounds.

Squire uses a pick which is considered "thin" by Carol Kaye, and he still plays pickstyle, and seemingly effortlessly and painlessly.


My point is, I think there's more to Wetton's story than thin picks...his "style" of picking was more to blame(as also has been mentioned here). His pinky and ring fingers anchoring on the bass(in the UK vids I have seen) always looked awkward to me.

I'm not saying Jimmy M isn't right about how he feels, b/c I can't go much lower than 1.00mm and feel like I'm losing economy of motion, but I also feel the really thick picks lose some attack from all the material that has to pass the string.

 

[genericusername]

I prefer my .88mm tortex to my 1.14 ultex picks when playing bass. Feels easier to play.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

I'm not saying Jimmy M isn't right about how he feels, b/c I can't go much lower than 1.00mm and feel like I'm losing economy of motion, but I also feel the really thick picks lose some attack from all the material that has to pass the string.

If you play with your finger, do you lose attack because your finger is much thicker? The pick doesn't pass the string, it pushes the string. With a thicker pick you have a slightly shorter distance to the next string!

With a flexible pick you are losing a lot of the energy you are putting into the string waiting for the pick to respond. You can pick a lot harder with a stiff pick. The thinner pick is almost like a mechanical compressor.

The thinner picks get a different tone however, and sounds thinner and "plinkier."

I don't like them too thick though. I use a purple tortes or a white Clayton pick. The Clayton is slightly thicker. I have one of those Robert Fripp picks, and that's really thin and stiff. I can't play with it to save my life however, because it's too pointy. I do like the little Dunlop Stubby picks for guitar though.

 

[FaithNoMan]

Yep, it's probably the plunky-ness that I like!

My thick fingers could never replicate the attack I get with a pick - Geddy's got his wonderful fingernails, but it's totally different than the Squire thing.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

Yep, it's probably the plunky-ness that I like!

My thick fingers could never replicate the attack I get with a pick - Geddy's got his wonderful fingernails, but it's totally different than the Squire thing.

I agree, I use a pick to get that pick tone. I use my fingers when I want a finger tone. But I used to play with a pick and people didn't know I was using a pick.

I'm a big Squire fan, and even when I played Rics I used Fender heavy picks. I used to break them too.

 

[FaithNoMan]

Yeah=) - I like them relatively thin, but pretty rigid. That way I feel I get to keep my dynamics and get a good edgy attack.

 

[JimmyM]

Going back and watching Wetton vs someone like Chris Squire on bass with a pick, is like watching a ham-fisted player and a very graceful, gentle pick player.

Wetton just beat the living crap out of the basses he used, fingerstyle or pick, while Squire "coaxed" the tones out of his - even his more aggressive sounds.

Squire uses a pick which is considered "thin" by Carol Kaye, and he still plays pickstyle, and seemingly effortlessly and painlessly.


My point is, I think there's more to Wetton's story than thin picks...his "style" of picking was more to blame(as also has been mentioned here). His pinky and ring fingers anchoring on the bass(in the UK vids I have seen) always looked awkward to me.

I'm not saying Jimmy M isn't right about how he feels, b/c I can't go much lower than 1.00mm and feel like I'm losing economy of motion, but I also feel the really thick picks lose some attack from all the material that has to pass the string.

I don't but that's beside the point. Anyway, nowhere in the first post of this thread do I claim that Wetton's problems were only from playing with thin picks. I really don't know what kind of picks he uses. But I can tell you that his troubles are definitely a result of ham-fisted technique, and using a heavy pick is one of the big parts of the Carol Kaye method for the exact reason that SGD stated...it takes more hand energy to use a thin or medium pick. With a heavy, I can barely touch the string and get as much attack as I can by beating a thin pick into the string. I find the tonal differences with pick thickness to be grossly exaggerated, BTW. If you can listen to a recording and tell what thickness of pick was used, you are a better man than I.

 

[FaithNoMan]

No, I agree, man - I hear little things in my own recordings that I can tell the difference between a 1.14 Clayton Acetal pick say, vs a Dunlop Ultex 1.00mm - there's def a diff in brightness, and a lesser difference between the ultex 1.14 and the ultex 1.00.

Yes, I'm completely anal about tone!:scowl:

But I agree about having a "neat" technique, and using a more rigid pick - I try to go as thin as possible without losing much in the way of rigidity.

Sorry if I came off wrong, man.. maybe we'll get to meet up at Bass Central sometime. We can have a bass-off that I'll surely lose at!

 

[JimmyM]

You didn't come off wrong at all, dude! I love a good back and forth and don't ever think anything about it unless it gets personal. This was hardly personal

 

[FaithNoMan]

That's cool Jimmy=)

BTW, dilemma solved - Carbon .88 pick, and it's stiffer than the 1.14 Dunlop Ultex I have. Sharp attack and very rigid for its' thickness.=)

(Has nice "palm tree" design too! What's up with that?)

P.S. - I did notice my hand wasn't as happy with the regular Dunlop Tortex .88 I just experimented with. Was a bit too flimsy for me.

 

[anonymous122511]

Whatever you do don't try a Blue Chip pick. They're quite amazing in how fast they play, how easy they are to control and how good they sound...and they cost $35 a piece. When Jake deVilliers first showed me one a few months back I figured I'd humor him and his boutique guitar pick....boutique guitar picks???
I mean really... That quickly changed to him laughing at the look on my face as the realization set in. I figured I'd mention these here because a TB search turned up no discussion of them and to me they really are worth what they cost.

Ok, I've been a disciple of Carol's pick method for years now and it's stood me in good stead. She said something once about how Steve Swallow would get more power out of his sound if he played with a closed hand. At first this kinda pissed me off...who is she to criticize a great and unique voice on the instrument like Steve? Wondering if she was full of it or not though I started experimenting with different closed and open grips and discovered she was 100% correct. I also discovered that often I like the softer attack of an open grip and added it to my stock of articulation. I guess my point (if there really is one) would be that Carol is a pretty insightful teacher and even if through trial and careful consideration you end up doing things differently than she does her ideas are still a really solid starting point.

 

[Lesfunk]

Im a finger player myself but when I had injured the middle finger of my picking hand. (I got hit by a 14" Model airplane propeller spinning at 9500 rpm) I was forced to gig with a pick for four months.
I got pretty good at it after a while but I had no method and my thumb would ache pretty badly down toward the wrist.
As they say, necessity is the mother of invention, I adopted primary elements of the Kaye pick method unknowingly ( side to side wrist motion, not anchoring my hand on the bass,alternating Up Down strokes) simply because it made the pain go away. I could play a lot longer with less fatigue this way as well.
The only thing I haven't been able to get used to is a Heavy Pick. When I use a Heavy or Extra heavy pick I can't seem to get a "feel" for the string as much as a Medium pick.
Also, for some reason I can hold a Med pick a little less tightly than a heavy one. It has to do with the "give" of the thinner pick.
I'm going to try some Carol Kay picks from her web site and see how they work.

 

[SGD Lutherie]

Thought some people would like to see these. These are two Carol Kaye picks I bought back in the 70s.

Apparently they were originally being sold by a company called "Coast", and the pick on the left has remnants of the logo, which was a shield. These were marketed as "Carol Kaye" picks.

Then they were being sold by Musician's Friend, I think, under the name "Guitar Man". Also as Carol Kaye picks. I mentioned that to Carol once, and she had no idea that was being done!

I have a bunch that she sent me with her name on them too, but I can't seem to find where I put those.

You can see that the original pick had gotten a lot of use! I like these picks, but they are a bit small for me, so I prefer a standard shaped pick.

 

[bassnj]

I watched a Nightwish video and their bassist plays this way. Closer to the neck, alternate picking, etc.

Go ahead and make fun of me for mentioning Nightwish. I can take it!!

 

[Atoz]

ZOMBIE THREAD!!!!

I learned to play pickstyle using Carol's method, and it works very well for me. I also prefer to use her picks. One thing I don't know, however, is the thickness of the picks she sells on her website. I wrote to her to ask, and she responded with a kind of "don't worry about the pick thickness, worry about the technique" answer, which didn't help. Does anyone around here know? I don't own any calipers, or I'd measure them myself. Thx.