just to interject, slinging the bass low is old fashioned..
if ya wanna be cool, put it up nice and high!
yeah baby! =)
if ya wanna be cool, put it up nice and high!
yeah baby! =)
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Why I keep hammering the Carol Kaye pick method
- Thread starter JimmyM
- Start date
I've been a pick player for almost 25 years now (age 38) and thankfully have not had any problems yet. From seeing examples in this thread I do believe I am close to the CK method. I do let my wrist do all the work and tend to rest the inside of my forearm on the body, but my wrist is straight. I do tend to let the bottom of my hand touch the high strings when I am picking the low strings.
Right now the issue I am having is with playing faster syncopated rhythms in my metal band while standing. When I'm sitting, I can play for hours with hardly any fatigue. However when I stand I have a hard time doing some 16th note stuff at faster tempos. This stuff is primarily on the low B so I'm always on a thick string, either B or E. I use 45-130 gauges on most of my 5-strings. Never anything lighter than 130 on the B. I've also had some problems with cramping below my thumb but I believe this has been from gripping the pick too tightly and picking too hard if I can't hear myself.
I've switched over to Spector basses exclusively for this band, and anyone familiar with them knows they tend to hang at more of an angle than a traditional bass due to the placement of the strap button away from the heel of the bass. I believe what happens is this makes me pick closer to the bridge which doesn't feel like what I'm used to. I'm experimenting with shortening my strap considerably. I never wore my bass low anyway, but it seems I may need to get the body most above my belt to get the angle I am used to while sitting.
Also, I've been using .88 Dunlop Nylons forever, but I am now considering trying heavier picks. I liked that the .88's would develop a slight curve to them that IMO would roll off the string more easily on downstrokes.
I've ordered a bunch of picks of varying types from 1m-3mm so we'll see where things land. I may post a couple pics of my picking for critique so go easy if I do.
Right now the issue I am having is with playing faster syncopated rhythms in my metal band while standing. When I'm sitting, I can play for hours with hardly any fatigue. However when I stand I have a hard time doing some 16th note stuff at faster tempos. This stuff is primarily on the low B so I'm always on a thick string, either B or E. I use 45-130 gauges on most of my 5-strings. Never anything lighter than 130 on the B. I've also had some problems with cramping below my thumb but I believe this has been from gripping the pick too tightly and picking too hard if I can't hear myself.
I've switched over to Spector basses exclusively for this band, and anyone familiar with them knows they tend to hang at more of an angle than a traditional bass due to the placement of the strap button away from the heel of the bass. I believe what happens is this makes me pick closer to the bridge which doesn't feel like what I'm used to. I'm experimenting with shortening my strap considerably. I never wore my bass low anyway, but it seems I may need to get the body most above my belt to get the angle I am used to while sitting.
Also, I've been using .88 Dunlop Nylons forever, but I am now considering trying heavier picks. I liked that the .88's would develop a slight curve to them that IMO would roll off the string more easily on downstrokes.
I've ordered a bunch of picks of varying types from 1m-3mm so we'll see where things land. I may post a couple pics of my picking for critique so go easy if I do.
From what I read from her, Carol did the up and downstrokes as part of the sound. Just mentioning that as to suggest there is a difference in the sound. She wrote something like she would always do downstrokes on the beat and upstrokes offbeat.
"...downstrokes on the downbeats and upstrokes with the upbeats..."
But to me a lot of what I read from her really was that type of sound, seems to sound similar to fingerstyle, and she was already a guitarist before picking up a bass.
I didn't want to chime in 19 pages late, but I had to...
I don't use a pick all that much, but when I do I prefer Dos Equis!
NO! I meant to say I let the tone I want decide what thickness of pick to use. Usually it's either a fender medium, extra heavy or a Dunlop 500 pink pick .96mm. Using a big honking pick seems to me like it would be more of a CTS offender than a skinny pick.
When I pick I'm not picking through the string, I'm sliding the pick over the string and the point plucks it. I can't see in a million years how this could hurt my hand. I can play for hours and not have a hint of pain.
Also, though I don't anchor my right hand on the bridge, it usually is in at least a little bit of contact with it - that kinda lets me know where my hand is in relation to the bass. Again, though, the tone I want determines where to pick the strings.
I highly, highly doubt my technique is gonna hurt me. I've been playing for 25 years and everything seems to work great.
Maybe I'm superhuman?
I don't use a pick all that much, but when I do I prefer Dos Equis!
NO! I meant to say I let the tone I want decide what thickness of pick to use. Usually it's either a fender medium, extra heavy or a Dunlop 500 pink pick .96mm. Using a big honking pick seems to me like it would be more of a CTS offender than a skinny pick.
When I pick I'm not picking through the string, I'm sliding the pick over the string and the point plucks it. I can't see in a million years how this could hurt my hand. I can play for hours and not have a hint of pain.
Also, though I don't anchor my right hand on the bridge, it usually is in at least a little bit of contact with it - that kinda lets me know where my hand is in relation to the bass. Again, though, the tone I want determines where to pick the strings.
I highly, highly doubt my technique is gonna hurt me. I've been playing for 25 years and everything seems to work great.
Maybe I'm superhuman?
- Aug 21, 2008
- 10,386
- 252
- 68
- Disclosures
- Owner, SGD Music Products
Thicker picks give you more control and you aren't wasting energy having the pick bend. You don't have to hit the strings as hard.
I find with a thinner pick I have to more more effort into it to get the same tone.
You are correct, it should just be the tip hitting the string (this is also true of playing with your fingers, which is why I don't get the point in ramps. Your fingers should not go past the string anyway).
I pick on a very slight angle when playing guitar with very small movements, unless I'm doing rhythm which is lots of downstrokes. I bass I pick with the bass more parallel to the strings.
I can play with a pick all day long with no discomfort, but my fingers will get sore and sometimes cramp playing finger style. I played guitar for four hours straight last night. My left hand fingers are sore, but my right wrist is just peachy.
I find with a thinner pick I have to more more effort into it to get the same tone.
You are correct, it should just be the tip hitting the string (this is also true of playing with your fingers, which is why I don't get the point in ramps. Your fingers should not go past the string anyway).
I pick on a very slight angle when playing guitar with very small movements, unless I'm doing rhythm which is lots of downstrokes. I bass I pick with the bass more parallel to the strings.
I can play with a pick all day long with no discomfort, but my fingers will get sore and sometimes cramp playing finger style. I played guitar for four hours straight last night. My left hand fingers are sore, but my right wrist is just peachy.
As David said, a thick pick makes your hand work less hard to project the notes.
It was approximately the 25 year mark in my playing when I first started getting pains from playing with a pick. I hit 40 and that was all she wrote. Maybe you will get lucky and never have pains...and maybe you won't get so lucky. If you don't, then count yourself lucky. But if you do end up getting pains, this is how to play with a pick and not get pains.
Yeah, I use medium picks, also - heavys just don't do it for me... I don't really anchor like many guitarists do, but I'm not totally free floating, either - I do use alternate strokes, though - I have to, to play up to speed - and it comes naturally to me... I've been playing for 35 years, and am primarily a pick player, although I can probably cover better than 80% of my material with fingers, without much practice... I've only been playing bass for a little over 20 years, though so maybe that's why I haven't run into issues???
Regardless, I'm all for using proper technique to prevent injury, FWIW...
Edited to add: I have a really strong fretting hand, but play with a fairly light attack with my picking/fingering hand - letting my amp do the "heavy lifting", so that dynamics come easily... I notice when another player uses my rig, we usually have to turn them down a bit - so maybe that all factors into why things work for me the way they do???
- georgestrings
Regardless, I'm all for using proper technique to prevent injury, FWIW...
Edited to add: I have a really strong fretting hand, but play with a fairly light attack with my picking/fingering hand - letting my amp do the "heavy lifting", so that dynamics come easily... I notice when another player uses my rig, we usually have to turn them down a bit - so maybe that all factors into why things work for me the way they do???
- georgestrings
It's been a while since there's been any activity here . I've been trying to implement this technique to nip CTS in the bud after recently joining a punk band where I have to take a leading role. However, after a gig now, my wrist feels fine, but the top and back of my shoulder and the inside of my elbow hurt, causing pain when raising my arm above my shoulder or bending at the elbow. Before I do any more damage, I'm hoping you could answer a couple of questions. I greatly appreciate the help!
First off, am I doing something wrong technique-wise, tightening up and playing too hard, or both? I have a tendency to do the latter, especially since I'm playing lots of 8th notes. As far as technique, I started playing up toward the neck as per the recommendations, sometimes even on top of it. After looking at some Carol Kaye session pics, though, I feel I may be trying to play too close to the neck, reaching, and causing strain. What's a good general area to aim for?
Secondly, how low is too low to wear my bass? I used to drop the strap as low as it would go to straighten my arm out, but the resulting strain on my wrist from this method is actually what led me to this thread. I raised it back up after Googling proper guitar strap height, so now I play my StingRay5 about smack over my midsection. The A string crosses my belly-button. JimmyM, I noticed you said you sling it low. Is there a nice compromise to be had here? I'm 6'6" with a 36/37" sleeve length if that's relevant info.
. I've been trying to implement this technique to nip CTS in the bud after recently joining a punk band where I have to take a leading role. However, after a gig now, my wrist feels fine, but the top and back of my shoulder and the inside of my elbow hurt, causing pain when raising my arm above my shoulder or bending at the elbow. Before I do any more damage, I'm hoping you could answer a couple of questions. I greatly appreciate the help!First off, am I doing something wrong technique-wise, tightening up and playing too hard, or both? I have a tendency to do the latter, especially since I'm playing lots of 8th notes. As far as technique, I started playing up toward the neck as per the recommendations, sometimes even on top of it. After looking at some Carol Kaye session pics, though, I feel I may be trying to play too close to the neck, reaching, and causing strain. What's a good general area to aim for?
Secondly, how low is too low to wear my bass? I used to drop the strap as low as it would go to straighten my arm out, but the resulting strain on my wrist from this method is actually what led me to this thread. I raised it back up after Googling proper guitar strap height, so now I play my StingRay5 about smack over my midsection. The A string crosses my belly-button. JimmyM, I noticed you said you sling it low. Is there a nice compromise to be had here? I'm 6'6" with a 36/37" sleeve length if that's relevant info.
It's easier for me to pick if the bass is a bit higher. Your right forearm (if you pick w/right hand) should be relaxed and approach the strings almost in parallel. Picking should be loose, easy and light. If you have to reach down at an angle, you will stress your arm and wrist and make picking harder and less smooth. Try adjusting your strap at various positions and experimenting with picking. Keep your mind open because you might discover the height that works best for you is the last position you would have guessed!
I'll second all of his. I use Clayton 1.5 346 shape...couldn't be happier. I don't have to strum or pick so hard. I actually prefer my pick tone, more consistent. My music teacher who doesn't like picks on bass changed his mind after we played a couple sessions together. Made me practice more and feel better. To each their own...took me awhile to get the hang of it. What little guitar I play is soooo much easier with the thicker picks...easy strumming.
Thicker picks give you more control and you aren't wasting energy having the pick bend. You don't have to hit the strings as hard.
I find with a thinner pick I have to more more effort into it to get the same tone.
You are correct, it should just be the tip hitting the string (this is also true of playing with your fingers, which is why I don't get the point in ramps. Your fingers should not go past the string anyway).
I pick on a very slight angle when playing guitar with very small movements, unless I'm doing rhythm which is lots of downstrokes. I bass I pick with the bass more parallel to the strings.
I can play with a pick all day long with no discomfort, but my fingers will get sore and sometimes cramp playing finger style. I played guitar for four hours straight last night. My left hand fingers are sore, but my right wrist is just peachy.
So I've read (most) of this thread. Seem like everyone is saying low is bad, but my wrists seem to hurt when I'm playing sitting down, I'm much more comfortable standing. Looking at Carol's video next to mine, obviously her arm is in a different position, but the wrist motions look similar to me. I grab the bridge sometimes, but have since dropped that habbit. Any critiques as if I'm doing something wrong? (besides the fact she is much better than me obviously)
mine-
mine-
In your video, your arm is pointing straight down to the strings and your plucking motion is therefore at a sharp angle. In Carol's video, her arm is almost parallel to the strings, so the plucking is a natural extension with no angle. this isn't rocket science. Your bass is too low.
Great thread. When I play with a pick I have always used my pinkie to anchor. I have used palm muting, and I tend to play closer to the bridge. (All the No-no's.) I don't play with a pick all the time, I play fingerstyle for most things, but I like to be able to use it for certain songs. Thankfully I have been Ok.
I will try this style and see if I can work it in to my bag of tricks.
Thank you Jimmy.
I will try this style and see if I can work it in to my bag of tricks.
Thank you Jimmy.
My wrist is straight, I don't see any sharp angles in my arm/wrist/fingers/or motion. When I hold the bass like she does, my arm hurts more because I'm holding it up, as opposed to letting it hang down. But I don't see much different in the actual wrist motion.
Your forearm should be approximately at a 90 degree angle from your upper arm. That will ensure that your wrist isn't bent, and will allow smooth, easy picking withing straining your wrist. It's impossible for you to achieve a 90 degree angle with your bass hanging so low. Adjust your straps and get it higher. That's about as clear as I can make it. Good luck!
I get the positioning, I'm asking the reason. If wrist motions are the same, what will give me wrist problems as opposed to the higher arm position? From what I understand, problems arise when the wrist has a sharp angle and is strained. If my wrists are straight, where is the damage being done?
What you're doing doesn't look as bad as a lot of guys who play low and close to the bridge with their wrist bent. I think that's because the angle at which your pick is hitting the strings is different. With Carol's method, it appears the pick is making an attack parallel to the strings. Your pick attack seems to be at more of an angle.
I took some Carol Kaye lessons - turned out I had been using her pick style all along. I get great tone with little effort.
I have no problems with my right hand.
I have no problems with my right hand.
