Jimmy, thanks for this information. For the last few weeks I've been studying and learning her picking tips from her website. I've always used index and middle finger, but my index finger has become arthritic and inflamed from overuse. I still prefer using my fingers to picking, though I'm hoping to get to the point where I can play easier songs with the pick and the more difficult songs with my fingers. You are spot-on when you speak of playing bass for the long haul... get the technique right and you significantly increase your chances of remaining injury free.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Why I keep hammering the Carol Kaye pick method
- Thread starter JimmyM
- Start date
Jimmy, thanks for this information. For the last few weeks I've been studying and learning her picking tips from her website. I've always used index and middle finger, but my index finger has become arthritic and inflamed from overuse. I still prefer using my fingers to picking, though I'm hoping to get to the point where I can play easier songs with the pick and the more difficult songs with my fingers. You are spot-on when you speak of playing bass for the long haul... get the technique right and you significantly increase your chances of remaining injury free.
BTW, I have to adjust one thing I said. I never noticed this until last night, but I actually allow the meaty part under my thumb to barely touch the strings when I need to mute unused strings I can't get with the left hand. I don't know if this falls in line with what Carol does, but it doesn't hurt my hand. Someone should go ask Carol for me
tip 9
...and make sure you can feel the bottom of your thumb muscle graze a string (not "lay" on a string, but almost).
Carol Kaye
Thanks, Jimmy.
I've been a picker since always, and in the late 80s-early 90s was in a somewhat popular NYC cub band that gigged alot and pretty much were in the same vein/era as early Green Day, tho we didn't end up playing stadiums.
After reading this I looked at an old video of the band and see myself committing every possible violation of the Kaye method; no wonder, then, that 15 minutes into a 40-minute set I'd feel like I was holding a golfball in my right hand, turning it effectively into a claw and would wince and stumble through the rest of the set.
I worked around by lightening up my strings (40-95) and concentrating from the get-go to keep myself from monkeygripping the pick, allowing some give - something I heard Johnny Ramone say: "Look like you're playing hard, but play easy." Worked pretty well - thanks for the deeper info on avoiding such issues.
I've been a picker since always, and in the late 80s-early 90s was in a somewhat popular NYC cub band that gigged alot and pretty much were in the same vein/era as early Green Day, tho we didn't end up playing stadiums.
After reading this I looked at an old video of the band and see myself committing every possible violation of the Kaye method; no wonder, then, that 15 minutes into a 40-minute set I'd feel like I was holding a golfball in my right hand, turning it effectively into a claw and would wince and stumble through the rest of the set.
I worked around by lightening up my strings (40-95) and concentrating from the get-go to keep myself from monkeygripping the pick, allowing some give - something I heard Johnny Ramone say: "Look like you're playing hard, but play easy." Worked pretty well - thanks for the deeper info on avoiding such issues.
I've read through this entire thread because I am very interested in developing sound picking technique. One bit is still confusing to me, mostly because I haven't been able to access an up-close visual demonstration. From Carol Kaye's tip #9:
"The bottom of your thumb muscle should graze on the string just below the one you're playing (and off the E as if there's another string below) with the pinkie side of your hand UP (not down, like a lot of guitar players play, this is a weak way to pick on the bass, the thumb side should be down and the pinkie side of the right hand UP)..."
If I'm reading this correctly, wouldn't that make my hand perpendicular to the strings, not parallel, therefore putting the pick at an odd angle to the strings? A visual would clear this up, as might a well-worded explanation. Thank you in advance for any information that follows.
"The bottom of your thumb muscle should graze on the string just below the one you're playing (and off the E as if there's another string below) with the pinkie side of your hand UP (not down, like a lot of guitar players play, this is a weak way to pick on the bass, the thumb side should be down and the pinkie side of the right hand UP)..."
If I'm reading this correctly, wouldn't that make my hand perpendicular to the strings, not parallel, therefore putting the pick at an odd angle to the strings? A visual would clear this up, as might a well-worded explanation. Thank you in advance for any information that follows.
Watch Carol's right hand picking motion from about 1:00 in this video.
http://youtu.be/s9idtdWAAEA?t=1m
http://youtu.be/s9idtdWAAEA?t=1m
You are also picking by the bridge, which is one of the big causes of pain. Pick closer to the neck. I wear my bass fairly low, although not quite that low, and I have no problems with pain. Other than that, I see nothing jumping out at me as pain-causing.
Thanks for the nice words, folks...glad many of you are getting something out of Carol's technique. It was a lifesaver for me and still is 10 years later since starting it.
Interesting in that clip from Carol is that she is using almost all downstrokes on the walking line. Like any set of rules, pick and choose what works for you.
Speaking generally, this is correct. However, as other posters in this thread have said, they got away with "what worked for them" for maybe twenty years, before things finally caught up to them, and they started to experience hand/wrist injuries.
She's also playing quarter notes with plenty of space in between them so it's not nearly as damaging to your hand as playing raipd 8th notes downstroked a la Dee Dee Ramone.
- Aug 21, 2008
- 10,386
- 252
- 68
- Disclosures
- Owner, SGD Music Products
Down strokes tend to sound different from up strokes, for whatever reason.
When I'm playing with a pick I use all downstrokes until I come to parts requiring alternate picking. It sounds more even.
Likewise when I play with my fingers I just use my index finger until I need two fingers.
In both cases I can play pretty fast before I have to switch.
You have to pay attention to your wrist. I started wearing my bass much lower so that my right wrist is not bent. My right arm is fairly straight now. Feels much better and I can still play higher frets fine.
Speaking of the Ramones, you can't play those guitar parts and alternate between down and up strokes. It never sounds right. I have no idea how he played that way, but he did.
I just recently moved my picking position on my Ric from behind the bridge pickup to just in front of it and it's made a huge difference(keep in mind that the bridge pup sits much further forward on a Ric than a J bass).
It has also made a huge difference in tone. Not only am I more comfortable, but I haven't lost any treble output and my tone lost the "nasal" quality it used to have. It also somehow feels more nimble there with my .88 carbon/nylon pick(stiffer than the 1.14 Dunlop I used to use, but it has a much sharper attack).
Down strokes tend to sound different from up strokes, for whatever reason.
When I'm playing with a pick I use all downstrokes until I come to parts requiring alternate picking. It sounds more even.
Likewise when I play with my fingers I just use my index finger until I need two fingers.
In both cases I can play pretty fast before I have to switch.
You have to pay attention to your wrist. I started wearing my bass much lower so that my right wrist is not bent. My right arm is fairly straight now. Feels much better and I can still play higher frets fine.
Speaking of the Ramones, you can't play those guitar parts and alternate between down and up strokes. It never sounds right. I have no idea how he played that way, but he did.
I see a lot of guys who use a lot of downstrokes using this cool "circular motion" and it seems to recycle some of the energy lost in downstroke-only playing. I tend to use downstrokes on some accentuated parts just because they sound different as well.
If your all-downstrokes sound different from your down-up strokes, then you need to practice your down-up until it sounds like all downstrokes.
While I think that there's a point at which up-down strokes will sound more consistent with all down strokes, I disagree with your statement. I believe that it isn't possible for up-down strokes to have the exact articulation of straight down strokes. There's a reason that strings players spend a lot of time deciding their bowing for specific parts (aside for the aesthetic uniformity), and it's the same reason that many bass players make conscious decisions between an up-down and a down-down picking technique for various parts of their music.
And just like I have no idea what direction the bow is going on an orchestra recording, I could record myself playing a Ramones song all downstrokes and then down-up, and you couldn't tell the difference. Like getting good at anything bass-related, it takes practice. If you don't put the time in, you won't get good at it. I put the time in.
A key part of Carol's method is that your picking mimics your foot tapping/timekeeping pulse. So in a quarter-note pulse, like a walking bass line, you use down strokes on the beat and upstrokes on the "ands".
John
John
- Aug 21, 2008
- 10,386
- 252
- 68
- Disclosures
- Owner, SGD Music Products
You do realize that the music often specifies bow direction? For short staccato phrases you often bow down on all notes.
Please do. And at full speed. And hit the strings hard. That's they key.
Here's why it sounds different; when you down stroke you are also pushing the string down towards the body. This is especially true when plucking hard. Up strokes tend to lift the string. You can't get that slamming tone up picking.
I know how to use a pick. I've been doing it for 42 years on both bass and guitar. I have no issues with my wrist. I'm also very good at cross picking. When I'm playing fast intricate parts I tend to start on an up stroke. Robert Fripp does as well.
But that's different from playing something like the Ramones where you really need to hit the strings hard to get the right tone.
Or chugging along with a solid 1/8 note pedal. That sounds better with all down strokes. Or one finger. I love Carol too but she's not a rock bassist.
I think Carol is great, but I don't take everything she says as the end-all either. (ex - the string mute thing is unfit for the harsh, aggressive tone I like)
I subscribe to the mantra of letting pain be your guide. If it hurts one way, think well about it and do it differently next time.
I subscribe to the mantra of letting pain be your guide. If it hurts one way, think well about it and do it differently next time.
