Closer to fingers, pretty sure they're available in different stiffness grades, and they wear out REALLY quick. Tried it once and hated it.
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Why I keep hammering the Carol Kaye pick method
- Thread starter JimmyM
- Start date
A felt pick does have a very finger-like tone.. but as mentioned do wear out very quickly. Also you get felt dust all over the front of the bass.
- Aug 21, 2008
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I find exactly the opposite is true. I get no click at all. If you are getting a click you are doing it wrong. Or you pick is too thin.
When you say "harmonics" do you mean pinch harmonics?
Have you seen what Carol's picks look like? Of course you use the point.
This is from her website:
This is why she doesn't get a click or a lot of harmonics (besides not using round wounds):
But she did get a very pick-like tone, if you listen to a lot of the old recordings. There was a sharp attack, and I guess you could call it a click. Her's was the tone I emulated when I started playing, even though I didn't know who she was. You need a mute to get that tone.
These are some old ones I had from back in the 70s. These didn't say "Carol Kaye" on them, but were marketed as her picks. The one on the left had the brand name "Coast." You can see that I got quite a lot of use out of that pick! I have some with her name on them too that she sent me back in the 90s.
Here's one of her's next to one of the picks I use. Her's is a little pointier. They are both the same thickness.
- Aug 21, 2008
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I started with a felt pick. I didn't like it either. It was really thick too.
Monk Montgomery had his "bionic thumb" picks out at one time. They were regular celluloid picks dipped in that kind of rubber you see on the handles of pliers.
You can buy that stuff to dip your tools in. Might be an option to try.
bongomania
Commercial User
There are rubber picks available too, in various hard/softness, I don't remember the brand right now. They don't wear out as fast as felt, and they leave no dust.
Felt and rubber picks seem like a kind of novelty item to my ears. For a less clacky sound a fairly heavy blunt pick played with a supple grip is a much more versatile solution. It just takes regular work over a period of months (years) to develop some technique. Soft picks are a quick fix that most people abandon pretty quickly.
One thing regarding a looser or more supple grip. If you try to keep the pick from moving it causes you to clench or grip too hard which gives a harder sound (and never really keeps the pick from moving around anyway). What works better for me is to maintain a loose grip and let the pick slip but then correct it. It's a little bit of a fine line dance but with practice it gets easier and can make a huge difference in getting a broad range of tones with the pick.
One last thought on tone. Carol Kaye teaches a closed hand grip for "more power" as she puts it and she's right about that. But in comparing this to the open grip Steve Swallow uses I realized you can alter your tone by opening or closing your hand too. An open grip makes for less attack at the front of the note.
One thing regarding a looser or more supple grip. If you try to keep the pick from moving it causes you to clench or grip too hard which gives a harder sound (and never really keeps the pick from moving around anyway). What works better for me is to maintain a loose grip and let the pick slip but then correct it. It's a little bit of a fine line dance but with practice it gets easier and can make a huge difference in getting a broad range of tones with the pick.
One last thought on tone. Carol Kaye teaches a closed hand grip for "more power" as she puts it and she's right about that. But in comparing this to the open grip Steve Swallow uses I realized you can alter your tone by opening or closing your hand too. An open grip makes for less attack at the front of the note.
"Kaye retired from studio work during the 1970s because of arthritis. She later became active again as a session musician, live jazz performer, and teacher of bass and guitar, giving seminars and interviews."
-Wilkipedia
"In the mid ’70s she developed arthritis, forcing her to retire from studio and live work. She began treating the condition with Glucosamine supplements and was eventually able to resume playing, albeit with a massively reduced workload, in the late ’80s."
-Guitar and Bass magazine
"By the mid 1970s, due to arthritis, she has eased up on session work and moved more towards teaching."
-Ryan Sheeler, author of Women's History Month-1960s musicians-Bassist Carol Kaye
All these sources site arthritis for the reason Carol cut back on her workload in the 70s, but does not specify if this was related to bass playing/technique. I'd be interested to know more about this.
From what I understand about her arthritis, she also has TMJ, which is a type of arthritic condition that affects the jaw. Doubt she used her mouth to play bass and guitar 
But she was able to resume playing when she started taking glucosamine. So this tells me she had a susceptability toward arthritis anyway. I don't know what initially caused her arthritis and TMJ, but if it was totally based on her playing, she surely would have developed it in the 60's when she was playing 16 hour studio days every day for years.
Not sure how that's applicable to this discussion, though. It's not like this method of using a pick doesn't work just because she had a bout with arthritis.
But she was able to resume playing when she started taking glucosamine. So this tells me she had a susceptability toward arthritis anyway. I don't know what initially caused her arthritis and TMJ, but if it was totally based on her playing, she surely would have developed it in the 60's when she was playing 16 hour studio days every day for years.Not sure how that's applicable to this discussion, though. It's not like this method of using a pick doesn't work just because she had a bout with arthritis.
I don't know about arthritis in Carol's hands but back in 90's before she got harassed off the newsgroups we corresponded regularly for several weeks about the chronic pain from the TMJ we both suffer from. I know that's been heavy burden in her life.
- Aug 21, 2008
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Here's a hard rubber pick that Robert Fripp uses:
These feel pretty much like celluloid picks. It's very thin and stiff.
While we're at cheap shots, according to her method, the position she has in the first pic you see on her site is all wrong. Anchored, wrist across the strings, everything the method recommends not to do. If I play like that, I cramp within minutes.
From what I understand about her arthritis, she also has TMJ, which is a type of arthritic condition that affects the jaw. Doubt she used her mouth to play bass and guitar
Not sure how that's applicable to this discussion, though. It's not like this method of using a pick doesn't work just because she had a bout with arthritis.
I heard she got TMJ because her jaw was clenched, from being PO'd at Motown's not paying her for her work...
Jazz Ad, you ought to go up to her and kick her in the shins.
Anyway, wrong. She's playing a chord and she's grabbing the upper notes with her fingers. Her wrist is straight and she's only resting her forearm on the upper bout.
Get over the Motown thing, dude. It was 50 years ago.
Anyway, wrong. She's playing a chord and she's grabbing the upper notes with her fingers. Her wrist is straight and she's only resting her forearm on the upper bout.
Get over the Motown thing, dude. It was 50 years ago.
Um no, it's congenital. Do you laugh and point at people in wheelchairs too? If you knew how debilitating TMJ can be you'd realize that's pretty much what you just did.
- Aug 21, 2008
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While we're at cheap shots, according to her method, the position she has in the first pic you see on her site is all wrong. Anchored, wrist across the strings, everything the method recommends not to do. If I play like that, I cramp within minutes.
Why on Earth would you get a cramp like that? That's exactly how I do it, except I pick over the bridge pickup most of the time. What's cramping, your fingers? You are probably squeezing the pick too hard.
I've posted this before, but here's how I hold a pick.
http://youtu.be/ShrbiKnOFuU (because of the way I was sitting, which was to get both hands on camera, I was picking closer to the neck than I usually do)
As far as Motown, they had a lot of different players, but people only talk about Jamerson. He didn't play on everything. Bernadette always sounded like Carol to me because it sounds like a pick. But who cares, she's played on a lot of stuff, most of which is easy to recognize that it's her playing.
I'm currently trying to learn how to play pickstyle -- after a dozen years or so of playing exclusively fingerstyle -- and I'm convinced by Jimmy and others that Carol's method is the way to go. I'm working very slowly and systematically to make sure I get it right from the get-go and don't develop any bad habits, etc. Progress is slow -- it ain't easy -- but I'm feeling good about it and seeing gradual progress. I can't shred like Julie Slick yet, but I feel like I'm on the right road.
Now I have a question about one very specific aspect of Carol's system: her recommendation that triplets should be picked "down-up-up." For all the discussion in this and other threads about her method, I've seen almost nothing about this particular technique. Do most folks adopt this part of her system along with the rest -- and if not, what alternative would they recommend? I'm finding it pretty difficult to master this, but am more than willing to keep at it if it's really the "best" way to deal with triplets.
Now I have a question about one very specific aspect of Carol's system: her recommendation that triplets should be picked "down-up-up." For all the discussion in this and other threads about her method, I've seen almost nothing about this particular technique. Do most folks adopt this part of her system along with the rest -- and if not, what alternative would they recommend? I'm finding it pretty difficult to master this, but am more than willing to keep at it if it's really the "best" way to deal with triplets.
- Aug 21, 2008
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Keep in mind that Julie doesn't pick like Carol.
I had to pick up my bass and play some triplets, but I alternate down and up, or up and down on those. That's assuming I'm staying on one string. If I'm crossing to higher strings, I'll do down-down-up, and if I'm crossing to lower strings, up-up-down. That's kind of standard for cross picking
This is really interesting thanks. I'm intrigued by the difference between down-up-up and down-down-up (or everything vice-versa). I'll have to experiment with both and see which feels more natural to me.
