Actually because i apparently have very little understanding of what i actually do, I was wrong in what i said. i went to play about 20 mins ago and realised i didnt really put my fingers on anything. They are unfolded though. I mean the remaining three not holding the pick. But they just float there with the rest of my hand. This is probably still a bad technique. Just wanted to specify i hadn't described it right. I think maybe i was thinking of when i play sitting down.
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Why I keep hammering the Carol Kaye pick method
- Thread starter JimmyM
- Start date
Actually because i apparently have very little understanding of what i actually do, I was wrong in what i said. i went to play about 20 mins ago and realised i didnt really put my fingers on anything. They are unfolded though. I mean the remaining three not holding the pick. But they just float there with the rest of my hand. This is probably still a bad technique. Just wanted to specify i hadn't described it right. I think maybe i was thinking of when i play sitting down.
Whenever Carol advises about bass pick method, I'll take her advice all day long.
When I'm standing, my straps are shorter for picking.
When sitting it's not an issue .
Picking "low-slung" doesn't work for me at all. Have to have my wrist and fore-arm at a certain angle to pick well.
When I'm standing, my straps are shorter for picking.
When sitting it's not an issue .
Picking "low-slung" doesn't work for me at all. Have to have my wrist and fore-arm at a certain angle to pick well.
BassHappy
Supporting Member
Hey Jimmy
Just discovered this "Technique" section and saw your post.
Another GREAT post, thanks for this!
This is so weird for me, I actually started out on Carol Kaye's bass method back in 1964 when I got my first bass. However, I never studied anything at the time about her picking technique.
When I first started playing I used my index finger exclusively on my right hand to pluck the strings. I am a perfectionist and no matter how hard I tried or how many hours I spent, I could never properly integrate my first and second fingers to attack the strings with the EXACT same velocity and consistency. Not many can. I tried and tried and tried - spent hours and hours. Granted, a lot of it was my brand of almost OCD perfectionism. I finally realized that it wasn't possible for me and it frustrated me enough that I was considering quitting. Not having immaculate attack was not a compromise I was willing to make. My guitar player at the time suggested a pick - and as I discovered picks I grew thoroughly addicted to the incredible consistency of the pick attacking the strings. It was mesmerizing.
When I decided to place a pick in my right hand, I continued to stroke the strings exactly as I would with my finger, in an upstroke fashion every time. Of course, as my playing progressed I added in the downstrokes as necessary. When I found out that Jamerson ONLY used his index finger to "upstroke" I had to smile. In the end result - my technique causes the first stroke in any new passage on any given string to usually be an upstroke instead of the usual down stroke. The upside of up-picking is that I play sort of backwards which can create passages which can definitely be described as unique. Other conventional pick players have remarked that my faster passages can be difficult to reproduce with more conventional "down pick" techniques. Much of what I play could be thought of to a conventional downstroker as a little backwards, i suppose. I do UP and DOWN pick, but the first stroke is more than likely an upstroke unless it doesn't make sense and is inconvenient. There are carefully crafted ergonomics involved which evolved naturally, and I have never had any health problems, as all my picking is generated from my wrist. I never move my thumb or EVER anchor anything. My wrist floats above the strings and even in very early photos of my playing you can see me picking right up near the neck as you and Carol suggest. If I am doing an eighth note pulse or a quarter note stomp, it's all UP picking all the way on every note. I am completely addicted to the incredible perfection and consistency of it!
Since that first day I tried it, I have never been anything but a pick player. It has helped to make me a very percussive player and I sometimes use my own version of a "chicken-scratch" method of picking - to emphasize the rhythm in a lot of the parts I design. A perfect example of this is the song of off "Crafty Hands" called 'I Forgot To Push It'. You can hear it in the intro and the outro. Much of that goes back to the early days of Happy the Man when Mike Beck was more often than not - off the drum kit doing his precision percussion - and I needed to anchor the band. So I figured out how to add a percussive element with my right hand. I also find that when I move my hand slowly from neck to bridge pickup and back it creates a VERY delightful natural phase shift that Ken Scott was very infatuated with and repeatedly asked me to duplicate.
The oversized dulcimer picks I use are big enough to keep my index finger from blistering and bleeding - and as you say - they do all the work. I also play VERY hard.
I bought out the stock that D'Andrea had in their warehouse a number of years ago - I think I have enough dulcimer picks to last the rest of my life. Not sure if they are making them again or not but the pick must be nearly 2" long. Happily, they only had mediums left when I bought them out - I prefer the heavy picks but they cause a lot more string breakage which always annoys the band - and they didn't have any in "Heavy".
I have also been known to use felt picks - which I LOVE - if I need a finger type softness in the sound I am seeking. No apologies. It works well for me and all of the techniques you mention from Carol are exactly the way I go after it. I also mute with the left hand quite naturally.
Thanks so much for this - this post was a bit of a revelation for me! Man, I love this place and every time I turn around - there you are - hitting the nail on the head!
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Sure, just put it on and hold it as you would a regular pick.
Rick and Lenny, thanks for the nice compliments!
You know Rick, in a case of "great minds think alike," Will Lee doesn't quite do what you do when he uses a pick, but it's kinda sorta similar. He holds the pick between his thumb and two fingers, then uses it as he would ordinary fingerstyle doing only upstrokes. I've tried it that way, and I might as well be playing with mittens on
But you have found a way to use a pick that doesn't hurt, is uniquely yours, and sounds way cool. I think the big takeaway from your story is to find a way that doesn't hurt and is comfortable to you so you can do it a long time and remain pain-free. Thanks for sharing your story...
You know Rick, in a case of "great minds think alike," Will Lee doesn't quite do what you do when he uses a pick, but it's kinda sorta similar. He holds the pick between his thumb and two fingers, then uses it as he would ordinary fingerstyle doing only upstrokes. I've tried it that way, and I might as well be playing with mittens on
But you have found a way to use a pick that doesn't hurt, is uniquely yours, and sounds way cool. I think the big takeaway from your story is to find a way that doesn't hurt and is comfortable to you so you can do it a long time and remain pain-free. Thanks for sharing your story...
I happen to be studying/using Carol Kaye's method/courses as we speak......
In her courses, 'Pick-method', wrist placement, pick-grip with fingers, type of pick, and timing of 'downpick' are the first things you learn right out of the gate.
"up-picking" on the first or root note is a definite no-no.
She goes to great lengths to explain the reason for timing down-picks and synchronizing up-picks.....not just picking at random.
At first, before I started , I was skeptical and didn't think it made much difference.
I was wrong. And who am I to question a musician of her calibre anyway.........?
At first I thought it would slow me down, doing it her way......
Wrong again. If you do things the exact way she says with a pick.........you will improve dramatically.
It's also about co-ordinating the fretting hand with the pick hand......
Another thing she recommends.......tapping with the left foot ( or whichever foot is the opposite of your picking hand), to get the brain to automatically recognize the down-picks and timing.
This simple little exercise works very well.....just like she said it would.
In her courses, 'Pick-method', wrist placement, pick-grip with fingers, type of pick, and timing of 'downpick' are the first things you learn right out of the gate.
"up-picking" on the first or root note is a definite no-no.
She goes to great lengths to explain the reason for timing down-picks and synchronizing up-picks.....not just picking at random.
At first, before I started , I was skeptical and didn't think it made much difference.
I was wrong. And who am I to question a musician of her calibre anyway.........?
At first I thought it would slow me down, doing it her way......
Wrong again. If you do things the exact way she says with a pick.........you will improve dramatically.
It's also about co-ordinating the fretting hand with the pick hand......
Another thing she recommends.......tapping with the left foot ( or whichever foot is the opposite of your picking hand), to get the brain to automatically recognize the down-picks and timing.
This simple little exercise works very well.....just like she said it would.
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BassHappy
Supporting Member
Rick and Lenny, thanks for the nice compliments!
You know Rick, in a case of "great minds think alike," Will Lee doesn't quite do what you do when he uses a pick, but it's kinda sorta similar. He holds the pick between his thumb and two fingers, then uses it as he would ordinary fingerstyle doing only upstrokes. I've tried it that way, and I might as well be playing with mittens on
Hey Jimmy
Man, that is so cool to hear. I have nothing but the utmost respect for Will.
You know, in retrospect, I was probably just lucky - lucky that I found such a fine instrument so early on that really FIT me. Also, due to so many ridiculous hours I spent woodshedding - I must have instinctively gravitated to a picking method that I knew was helping to protect myself.
I love how you turned the beginnings of potential medical problems around for yourself - by finding a way to modify your technique after so many years. Not everyone can do that - hard to teach an old dog new tricks - but I guess when it comes to your survival as a player - you find a way to figure it out! So great that you did - and a real blessing that you can share your insights with others.
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BassHappy
Supporting Member
Hey ZenG
All great info and I am so glad to hear of your improvement. Carol Kaye is in my estimation one of the all-time greatest bass players ever - not just for her technique, but for her ability to be so incredibly creative and inventive on her instrument. I have nothing but respect for her and her teaching methods.
I'm reading this topic only now 
I'm a guitar player that switched to the bass after seven years of playing, and I can tell you that the technique is actually the same, but one should just consider that the strings react in a different way.
the "anchoring pinky, palm muting, all downstrokes" it's not a guitarist thing, is just a wrong method of playing with a pick, wether you are a guitar or bass player.
this is both right and wrong: the "absolute" is not a thing in life, and Jedi don't speak in absolutes
it depends on how the player learns to play: if your hand strangles the pick, using a medium or light pick is impossible, because it would bend against the strings and don't follow the movement of the hand.
if you learn to keep it light, without any strenght from the fingers, a light pick is harmless in any position.
on the other side, an heavy pick is easier to be kept "hard" in between the fingers, because it won't bend. so it seems easier to grab it and play hard.
personally I use a Dunlop Jazz III with the guitar, both for solo and strumming/rhythm, but on the bass I can only play with a .60mm pick, because heavier picks kills my wrist and fingers, and I can't play with the right dynamics and "freedom".
this depends on the sound needed, just like playing with fingers. you can't get the "jaco sound" without playing on the bridge pickup.
however, with a heavy pick playing near the bridge is difficult , but on the other hand, playing with a medium pick near the bridge is harmless and easier.
the real problem is that usually not-well-used-to-the-pick-players can't play lighlty! McCartney uses medium picks, has played near the neck with a light touch and even an harder touch without any issue at all. it's all just in playing without tensions on the arm and shoulder.
same here: palm muting can cause injuries if used wrong: wrong means that you stick the palm on all the strings together and bend the wrist to change strings. this is just a wrong technique, or better, this is NOT technique, is just the lack of it.
the real palm muting makes you mute just the string you are playing and the lower strings (higher strings are stopped by the fretting hand).
this error is common, but it doesn't mean that palm muting is wrong, it's just wrongly used.
many people even push the hand against the strings while muting... I can feel the pain only thinking about it...
the Nikki Sixx method of anchoring the hand (even with an actual anchor ) is wrong, like it's wrong to anchor the thumb to the pickup on fingerstyle, and bending all the wrist to get to the higher strings.
however, palm-muting when playing near the neck is almost impossible, so the mute at the bridge is useful if not necessary.
go tell it to the virtuoso pick players out there a smooth and NOT TENSE thumb movement, going with the wrist and elbow movement is the right combo to avoid injuries of any kind, because the pick follows the movement of the hand, and becomes part of the fingers, not a "foreing body" just kept between the fingers.
what everyone should learn while learning how to use a pick is to let it become part of the hand, so any movement is 100% natural and not forced, under tension or anything.
the fact that many players get it wrong is because they don't use it like that.
a pick player should learn to play with the pick in any position, without tension and without anchoring anywhere, having a complete control of the pick, like if it was an actual part of the hand.
the moment when it's a foreing body kept between the fingers, the technique is wrong in some way, causing the lack of freedom in playing.
and it's not related in any way to the gauge of the pick. many bassists that play only with a pick use medium picks, and are still rocking without any problem, because the can keep the pick in their hands.
making an example on myself, I find more difficult playing with a 1mm pick on bass, I can't do alternate strokes properly and it slips from my hand easilly, because it don't follow the hand movements, so holding it ligltly makes it slip over the strings, and I sould hold it tightly, using strenght and adding tension to the arm.
with .60mm picks or at least .73/75mm picks I can play for hours, because it's 100% a natural movement of the hand. I can use a dynamic range from super-soft to heavy/loud, I can pick on every inch of the string, I can palm-mute and use fast picking or slow picking, and I don't need to think about it, I just play naturally like when I play with only my fingers or the thumb.
those advices are good as a starting point, but are also a bit vague today. Carol is an old player, and she has the typical technique and attitude of 50's/60's bass players, and also plays harder than any player I've ever seen
to play like Gallup, Rourke, Burnel, Freeman and recent bass players it's not necessary to use a lot of strenght and heavy dynamic, slamming the strings like she does when she plays hard
you'll probably never see a modern pick player using lot of strenght, but just usind the pick like if it was part of the fingers.
I'm a guitar player that switched to the bass after seven years of playing, and I can tell you that the technique is actually the same, but one should just consider that the strings react in a different way.
the "anchoring pinky, palm muting, all downstrokes" it's not a guitarist thing, is just a wrong method of playing with a pick, wether you are a guitar or bass player.
this is both right and wrong: the "absolute" is not a thing in life, and Jedi don't speak in absolutes
it depends on how the player learns to play: if your hand strangles the pick, using a medium or light pick is impossible, because it would bend against the strings and don't follow the movement of the hand.
if you learn to keep it light, without any strenght from the fingers, a light pick is harmless in any position.
on the other side, an heavy pick is easier to be kept "hard" in between the fingers, because it won't bend. so it seems easier to grab it and play hard.
personally I use a Dunlop Jazz III with the guitar, both for solo and strumming/rhythm, but on the bass I can only play with a .60mm pick, because heavier picks kills my wrist and fingers, and I can't play with the right dynamics and "freedom".
this depends on the sound needed, just like playing with fingers. you can't get the "jaco sound" without playing on the bridge pickup.
however, with a heavy pick playing near the bridge is difficult , but on the other hand, playing with a medium pick near the bridge is harmless and easier.
the real problem is that usually not-well-used-to-the-pick-players can't play lighlty! McCartney uses medium picks, has played near the neck with a light touch and even an harder touch without any issue at all. it's all just in playing without tensions on the arm and shoulder.
same here: palm muting can cause injuries if used wrong: wrong means that you stick the palm on all the strings together and bend the wrist to change strings. this is just a wrong technique, or better, this is NOT technique, is just the lack of it.
the real palm muting makes you mute just the string you are playing and the lower strings (higher strings are stopped by the fretting hand).
this error is common, but it doesn't mean that palm muting is wrong, it's just wrongly used.
many people even push the hand against the strings while muting... I can feel the pain only thinking about it...
the Nikki Sixx method of anchoring the hand (even with an actual anchor
) is wrong, like it's wrong to anchor the thumb to the pickup on fingerstyle, and bending all the wrist to get to the higher strings. however, palm-muting when playing near the neck is almost impossible, so the mute at the bridge is useful if not necessary.
go tell it to the virtuoso pick players out there
a smooth and NOT TENSE thumb movement, going with the wrist and elbow movement is the right combo to avoid injuries of any kind, because the pick follows the movement of the hand, and becomes part of the fingers, not a "foreing body" just kept between the fingers. what everyone should learn while learning how to use a pick is to let it become part of the hand, so any movement is 100% natural and not forced, under tension or anything.
the fact that many players get it wrong is because they don't use it like that.
a pick player should learn to play with the pick in any position, without tension and without anchoring anywhere, having a complete control of the pick, like if it was an actual part of the hand.
the moment when it's a foreing body kept between the fingers, the technique is wrong in some way, causing the lack of freedom in playing.
and it's not related in any way to the gauge of the pick. many bassists that play only with a pick use medium picks, and are still rocking without any problem, because the can keep the pick in their hands.
making an example on myself, I find more difficult playing with a 1mm pick on bass, I can't do alternate strokes properly and it slips from my hand easilly, because it don't follow the hand movements, so holding it ligltly makes it slip over the strings, and I sould hold it tightly, using strenght and adding tension to the arm.
with .60mm picks or at least .73/75mm picks I can play for hours, because it's 100% a natural movement of the hand. I can use a dynamic range from super-soft to heavy/loud, I can pick on every inch of the string, I can palm-mute and use fast picking or slow picking, and I don't need to think about it, I just play naturally like when I play with only my fingers or the thumb.
those advices are good as a starting point, but are also a bit vague today. Carol is an old player, and she has the typical technique and attitude of 50's/60's bass players, and also plays harder than any player I've ever seen
to play like Gallup, Rourke, Burnel, Freeman and recent bass players it's not necessary to use a lot of strenght and heavy dynamic, slamming the strings like she does when she plays hard
you'll probably never see a modern pick player using lot of strenght, but just usind the pick like if it was part of the fingers.
This thread pops up from time to time. I'm used to the necromancy.
Anyway, pier, I disagree with many of your points, but I will never convince everyone. All I can tell you is I do what Carol says and I don't get pain. I deviate and I get pain if I do it longer than 30 seconds at a time. So suit yourself.
Anyway, pier, I disagree with many of your points, but I will never convince everyone. All I can tell you is I do what Carol says and I don't get pain. I deviate and I get pain if I do it longer than 30 seconds at a time. So suit yourself.
I've been following Carol's (and Jimmy's) advice on picking for about a year. Basically was a pick hack before. Making steady progress and am really pleased with being able to "double" on the electric bass. My picking is getting better than fingering rhythmically, but of course each technique has its place from a sonic perspective. It's great to use whichever technique is better for the song without thinking or stressing about it.
yes, my point was all about that, the fact that it's impossible to speak in absolutes. what fits you may not fit another player, and the only "right" techique is the technique that don't cause tension in any part of the body.
playing technique is nothing more than a phisical excercise, like going to the gym or playing any sport.
years ago my teacher wanted me to change completely my left hand position, not considering the lenght of my fingers and the thumb in particular. he had small hands and a short thumb, and for him the perfect position with the left hand was with the thumb "under" the ring finger.
I try to explain this part better: in this picture the thumb is "under" the middle finger: http://bassmusicianmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/feb08-frethand_fig6.jpg
I usually keep the thumb in a similar position, but nearer the index finger. I have a long thumb and medium/big hands, and my teacher wanted me to change my natural and correct position for his favourite one, with the thumb under the ring finger.
for my hand that position was worse than unnatural, impossible to keep for even a couple of minutes, but he insisted, because he had other students that found that position comfortable.
obviously, I changed the teacher, even if it was a famous one here in Italy, because I didn't want to harm myself to follow the beliefs of an idiot who can't understand that different hands may need slightly different positions.
it's the same with the pick: you find comfortable heavy picks and the teachings of Carol, but others don't, because we don't have the same hands or the same arms.
it's just like with strings... how many bassists can't handle light gauge strings, and use a minimum of 45-105? on the other hand there are players who can't stand 45 or 50 gauges, and use 40, 35 or even 30.
anyone can get used, but it can take time and harm hands.
one should try all the possibilities and actually use the one that makes him feel comfortable, play without tensions and fatigue.
it's impossible to say "medium picks are bad because you'll get hurt" just because you feel this way
This always surprises me. When I play guitar I always use a heavy pick. I like the Ultex Jazz III. I can always play softer if I want, but when I want to hammer it, only a heavy pick works. For bass I use the same picks I use for Mandolin. All of them are at least 1.4.
And the Carol Kaye method is instinctive if you let it be. And down up is natural.
And the Carol Kaye method is instinctive if you let it be. And down up is natural.
