Why I keep hammering the Carol Kaye pick method

[Faraday]

This thread pops up from time to time. I'm used to the necromancy.

All I can tell you is I do what Carol says and I don't get pain.

I suspect you mean that you do some of what Carol says. If you did everything she says, you would be banned from TB. As you said in your OP, "Carol may not be a day at the beach...." Maybe a day at Omaha Beach.

 

[JimmyM]

I suspect you mean that you do some of what Carol says. If you did everything she says, you would be banned from TB. As you said in your OP, "Carol may not be a day at the beach...." Maybe a day at Omaha Beach.

BWAHAHAHA!

 

[loveandbass]

anyone ever use a pick with upright bass?

 

[JimmyM]

anyone ever use a pick with upright bass?

Only as a goof. Just can't do it.

 

[MarkA]

anyone ever use a pick with upright bass?

Long ago (High school?) I remember sitting down with the big bass in my lap, guitar-style, and laying into something with a pick. Now and then I'd sit down and play it that way on a lark, but usually with my fingers.

I play a rough little version of Over the Hills and Far Away on the upright sometimes (rougher if I sing). Been awhile since I did that, too. Did it in a classroom full of kids once, to many giggles -- as much for my playing and singing as for their teacher, blushing at her desk. I was standing, though, and didn't do that with a pick.

 

[cazclocker]

Hello JimmyM, I'm beginning to revolutionize my playing by FINALLY listening to Carol Kaye's advice (chordal theory as well as picking style) - although I've known about her for years. I'm still somewhat new here on TB so I just found this thread - but at least I'm chiming in on only the 25th page of discussion, instead of the 93rd page of the Geezer Butler discussion!! LOL!
Anyway - I have a lot of reading and practicing to get to... so if you'll excuse me...
...Doug in Arizona

 

[-Asdfgh-]

I had the advantage, I suppose, of going from bass to guitar so I've never anchored my pinky. But then I am 99% a fingerstyle player and I started out playing guitar purely with fingers, except that the strumming used to wear down the main bed of my nails (even with coats of Sally Hansen's Hard as Nails - which is the only nail varnish for me). But I can't really cope with more than the lightest of medium picks, and if I am trying to do some early Cocteau Twins it still feels more natural to use a very light pick such as you might use for gentle acoustic guitar picking, so I am not managing Carol Kaye's advice, even though I found her a very generous teacher and she used to send me tapes and even Christmas cards (I've moved - I should drop her a line). But then when I reach for a pick now it's probably to play something that was originally played with flats and a mute and that might not be the bass I have to hand, so sometimes it's palm muting. I can't sustain that for very long though as it is an uncomfortable wrist position.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

One of the keys to prevent wrist or carpal tunnel problems is to ensure against a deep bend of the wrist.
Ironically, this is somewhat easier to control if you wear your instrument low on your body.

I've sometimes wondered about the 'classic' Glenn Cornick angle for finger picking which is bass at around 45 degrees, plucking hand low, almost like a DB. Also more compact on small stages. Cornick, when playing with a pick seems to have used a classic Kaye technique. On the Isle of Wight he was playing fingerstyle with a more horizontal bass. Maybe that was Thunderbird neck dive

 

[superheavyfunk]

...but you don't have to get all Wooten about it.

hahahaha.

 

[JimmyM]

Interesting quote from AC/DC's Cliff Williams I saw in the Bass Player magazine with him on the cover.

The question was related to him using a pick..."Do you use downstrokes or a combination?"

Cliff replied, "Mostly downstrokes till the hand feels like it's going to fall off [laughs]."

We've talked about Cliff in this thread before, and I mistakenly attributed the brace he wears on his right hand to supporting his hand while playing downstrokes like a rock guitarist, when, in fact, it was to cover up a scar on his wrist that gets irritated when he plays. Well that may be true, but this quote proves that he struggles with pain using a pick, and it's kind of sad because it could be alleviated by adopting the Carol Kaye method. On the other hand, he looks really cool onstage and he can afford any CTS surgery he may need in the future but it just proves my point about how damaging it can be to play like that, no?

 

[Flatwoundround]

Interesting quote from AC/DC's Cliff Williams I saw in the Bass Player magazine with him on the cover.

The question was related to him using a pick..."Do you use downstrokes or a combination?"

Cliff replied, "Mostly downstrokes till the hand feels like it's going to fall off [laughs]."

We've talked about Cliff in this thread before, and I mistakenly attributed the brace he wears on his right hand to supporting his hand while playing downstrokes like a rock guitarist, when, in fact, it was to cover up a scar on his wrist that gets irritated when he plays. Well that may be true, but this quote proves that he struggles with pain using a pick, and it's kind of sad because it could be alleviated by adopting the Carol Kaye method. On the other hand, he looks really cool onstage and he can afford any CTS surgery he may need in the future but it just proves my point about how damaging it can be to play like that, no?

For me I am starting to realize how important staying healthy on the bass is. Yes, I could get a better tone with a heavier bass AND with Higher Action and now I see that I can get less pick click with a lighter pick. But how much fun is it going to be when I have a sore back and shoulders and both of my forearms are aching?

I spent over a decade doing Judo and had plenty of injuries. Now that I love bass so much I would hate to have injuries take me away from it.

Seems to me the more physically comfortable we are playing the better we would sound. Just like feel and emotion come through our playing I would think our level of comfort would too. Perhaps this coupled with great timing and rhythm could overshadow some of the lost tone improvement?

Having said all this I will most likey still compulsively and obsessively search for a better tone and pick. Seems to be a disease I cannot get rid of.

 

[cazclocker]

Flatwoundround, you can TOTALLY ELIMINATE (not just reduce or minimize) the pick clicking sound by using a Carol Kaye pick, and learning to get comfortable holding it the right way. Yes, there is a RIGHT WAY to hold it. The picks are thick heavy plastic (I haven't measured it with a micrometer, but it's about .080" to maybe .085" thick) and you hold them in a certain way. Details are at Carol Kaye's website.
Be aware that because there is one right way, all other ways are WRONG. Just sayin'.

 

[moody]

Mrjim, I have made several attempts to use the old style I used to use, and without fail, within 30 seconds my hand starts to hurt again. I go back to Carol's style and whammo...pain gone! So I don't even bother anymore.

What you describe is exactly what I feel when I try to play with fingers. Intense pain while I'm playing for more than about 30 seconds. But pick up a pick and I can play for hours without issue.

Having said that, my pick style is what you refer to as the wrong way. I am going to attempt your method as I know how painful RSI injuries are. I will have to look at the best method for muting the strings. mostly left hand I think - I play a lot of sustained notes.

 

[Matthew_84]

BTW, I have to adjust one thing I said. I never noticed this until last night, but I actually allow the meaty part under my thumb to barely touch the strings when I need to mute unused strings I can't get with the left hand.

I'm very glad you mentioned this Jimmy! I've always wanted to play with a pick because I love the attack and tone, but it was never, ever comfortable for me to palm mute and pick at the same time. And muting, to me, is one of the most crucial parts of playing a multi-stringed instrument.

I always came back to this thread when I felt the urge to learn to play with a pick, but then I'd read about sticking a foam mute under the strings, and it would discourage me from trying to play with a pick altogether - I personally don't like using any sort of mutes other than my hands, for whatever reason.

After reading this tidbit, I decided to give it another shot and it worked out just fine! I've always been a floating thumb finger-player, using my thumb to mute the lower strings than the one I was playing, and using my fretting hand to mute the higher ones. I am able to achieve this with this technique, and I was amazed how easy it felt picking in this manner! Now I just need to work my ass off to get good at it.

I did find it helped to keep the tip of the pick only exposed a tiny bit so my hand was only millimeters away from the strings.

Thanks again Jimmy!

 

[JimmyM]

Glad it helped, Matt!

 

[-Asdfgh-]

I saw a clip of The Kinks doing You Really Got Me yesterday and the bassist had a P with covers on and was picking in the Kaye approved location and manner by the look of it. The bass was slung quite high and he looked to be using the bridge and pickup covers to guard the strings from his arm. For the first time I saw a use for the covers.

 

[Matthew_84]

Hey guys, got a quick question. I know it's recommended to do alternating plucks, and I feel I'm already pretty decent at having them sound consistent.

But is it recommended to strictly alternate?

I'm having a tendency to rake when going to a lower string, especially when the last pluck the string above was an upstroke. Pink Floyd's "Money" main bassline with the root B, then the octave, then going down quickly to the fifth, and quickly back down to the root is causes some fumbles.

Also, it seems it would be easier to rake when ascending up strings quickly, such as in Ohio Players "Fire" where I go from the root, quickly up to the fifth, and up to the octave.

And further to the strictly alternating point, if I have a 15 note passage that repeats a few times, should I start the first run though with a down-stoke (for example), and then start the second through with an up-stroke, etc?

I am trying my best to strictly alternate. I'm doing some Scott Devine picking exercises with the C major scale and I'll do them starting with down-strokes, and repeat several times without doing any raking, and then repeat the exercises starting with up-strokes without any raking, but there are a few grey areas (like the ones I listed above) where I'm not quite sure if it's really worthwhile to stick to strictly alternating and I'm curious on some of your guys thoughts.

 

[JimmyM]

Eliminating raking is much like having someone correct your golf swing. For the first couple weeks it's very awkward and seems like a waste of time. After a while, it starts getting easier, and then you start noticing the improvements. Give it time and don't give up on it right away.

 

[Matthew_84]

Yeah, I'm just impatient is all. I find I have to relearn every bassline I know and do it slowly so I can make sure I am strictly alternating, and it's a very tedious process. Thankfully I'm not in a band at the moment so there's no urgency... I guess it is a good time to be patient and make sure it's solid. Thanks again Jimmy.

 

[Flatwoundround]

John Wetton, a highly skilled bassist who could play pretty much anything you threw at him, and whose playing and singing with King Crimson, Roxy Music, Uriah Heep and UK established him as a world-class bassist with tech skills to spare (don't judge him by Asia), has carpal tunnel syndrome in his right hand. He's had one surgery that apparently hasn't taken, and now plays with a thumbpick taped to his thumb. When he played with a pick before, he pretty much played like a guitar player (since he plays guitar, too, not surprising). I'd see him do things like anchoring his pinky, palm muting, all downstrokes, etc. The guy can still play, make no mistake, but he's greatly diminished by CTS and has to play in pain.

People dismiss me sometimes when I talk about Carol Kaye's pick method preventing these injuries, but there's no doubt in my mind that Wetton's CTS was brought on by playing bass with a pick like guitarists. Guitar strings are thin and wussy. Bass strings are thick and manly. You can't play pick bass like a guitar. Sure, a lot of you have been getting away with it. Wetton got away with it for 40 years. I managed to go for 25. I was on the verge of developing it. Within 10-15 seconds, my hand would ache like crazy while I used a pick, so naturally I dropped it and played fingers only for a few years, but I missed the attack of a pick in some songs and wanted to do it again, so I learned Carol Kaye's pick method. Took a little while to get used to it, and it definitely doesn't look as cool as playing pick bass like a guitar, but I have been totally pain-free playing pick bass for the last 3 years. Carol may not be a day at the beach, but she certainly can play, and she would play 16 hours a day in the 60's and remains totally pain free to this day.

Here's how to do it. You can also see videos of Carol playing on www.carolkaye.com and probably Youtube if you need a visual. And scattered out in Carol's Player's Points and Forum is a lot of info on it, with a much better explanation of it all than I could do.

1. Never use a light or medium pick. Use at least a heavy. With a heavy, the pick does the work and takes the beating. With lighter picks, you do the work.

2. Never anchor your hand because it causes you to take your hand out of the position it needs to be in to be pain free. Want to palm mute? Stick a sponge under the strings instead. Palm muting is especially injurous, even though a lot of people do it.

3. Pick close to the neck where the strings are looser. I use light strings (.040 G) so I can pick from between the neck up to the first pickup without pain. For .045 G and higher, you're better off staying close to the neck. Yes, I know it sounds boomy up there. But it really doesn't sound as boomy as you think in a mix. If it really irritates you, roll off some bass instead.

4. Hold your hand to where your pinky is slightly raised off the strings, and keep your wrist parallel with the strings. Move your hand from the wrist in a side to side motion, and NEVER MOVE YOUR THUMB!!! Moving your thumb is a killer.

5. (OOPS...forgot this one...extremely important!) Don't play just downstrokes. Always play down-up. Downstrokes take your wrist out of the side to side movement and cause pain. "But Jimmy," you protest, "Downstrokes sound heavier than upstrokes!" Hmmm, sounds like you need to practice more. If someone can tell the difference between you playing all downstrokes and you playing down-up, just practice it until you get it.

Takes a little getting used to, but it's so much better than ending the night with your hand in an ice bucket or having surgery once a year. You may be getting away with the stuff you're doing for a while, but it'll catch up with you eventually. Trust me.

Hi Jimmy,

First of all thanks for posting this. I play with a pick and lately my rear right shoulder muscle has been getting really sore since I am technically holding my right arm up when playing. I never had this problem before but I suspect I am putting way too much tension in it since I have been working alot of 16th note stuff with lots of ghost notes too (big workout on the right hand as opposed to just playing quarter notes with the occasional upbeat for walking Blues or Jazz lines).

When I play up by the neck I am able to actually rest my right arm on the bass such that the rear deltoid of the right arm no longer has to stay contracted to hold the right arm up. The cool thing is that the bass sounds deeper by the neck but I had three questions about playing near the neck.

1. How do you do ghost notes near the neck? Strings seem floppy. Do you just shift to the middle or bridge area to do the ghost notes and then go back to the neck or can you do them near the neck and just have to practice more to get it?

2. How do you mute with right hand here? Seems to me my right thumb is in a good position to mute the lower pitched strings when I play the A, D or G strings. Sort of like how finger players use the floating thumb technique. I know Carol advocates a foam mute but I prefer not to use one.

3. I think you said that playing near the neck is easier on your right hand wrist since the strings are not as tight there? That makes sense and I again applaud your intention of educating on using really good ergonomics so that we can continue to play bass as we love to do. Jeff Berlin also advocates lighter basses with lower action and playing with a lighter touch. This also makes alot of good common sense to me too.


Thanks.

If anyone else here knows the answer to these questions I sure would appreciate a response.