Why I keep hammering the Carol Kaye pick method

[JimmyM]

Thanks for the nice words! Here's my take on your questions:

1. Usually I can usually just lift off a little with my left hand and still keep the string muted for ghost notes. Every now and then I play a note that makes a harmonic when you do that, which is a little shocking, but it's also led to cool stuff occasionally.

2. If you follow Carol's line of thinking, you don't RH mute at all, as it takes your hand completely out of an ergonomic position. Instead, she suggests using a piece of felt taped over the strings at the bridge. I could never do that myself since it looks bad and isn't easily taken on and off, but you can do things like stick a sponge or piece of foam under it, or you can buy outboard mutes that can be switched up or down. Or you can do what I do and forget about it

 

[Flatwoundround]

Thanks for the nice words! Here's my take on your questions:

1. Usually I can usually just lift off a little with my left hand and still keep the string muted for ghost notes. Every now and then I play a note that makes a harmonic when you do that, which is a little shocking, but it's also led to cool stuff occasionally.

2. If you follow Carol's line of thinking, you don't RH mute at all, as it takes your hand completely out of an ergonomic position. Instead, she suggests using a piece of felt taped over the strings at the bridge. I could never do that myself since it looks bad and isn't easily taken on and off, but you can do things like stick a sponge or piece of foam under it, or you can buy outboard mutes that can be switched up or down. Or you can do what I do and forget about it

Thanks.

Do you rest your forearm on the bass thus not having to contract your right rear deltoid? Actually I am very curious if bass players do this in general. I saw Todd Johnson describing floating thumb and it looks like the rear right shoulder muscle has to hold the arm up and I would think that would make the rear right shoulder muscle tight and contracted.

 

[JimmyM]

Nope, when I'm playing live I wear it low enough to where I don't have to, and when I'm at home and playing sitting down, I may brush up against it a little but not really resting on it. Seems to work for me. I don't get any pain.

 

[SirMjac28]

I can swear by this method it really works. I also play guitar and had some real bad habits like the ones Jimmy described it makes a difference and really helps with my nerve damage.

 

[Flatwoundround]

Nope, when I'm playing live I wear it low enough to where I don't have to, and when I'm at home and playing sitting down, I may brush up against it a little but not really resting on it. Seems to work for me. I don't get any pain.

Thanks again.

My strategy then will be a combination of all the following (so my rear right deltoid won't be contracted and sore):

1. Playing nearer the neck
2. Look at wearing bass a little lower where I pluck but then angle it up somewhat for the fretting hand
3. Taking more breaks when I practice
4. Try to relax all the muscles more
5. Don't practice hard 16th note drives for a long period of time - (mix it up so as to give the right hand a break more by working on some slower walking basslines).

 

[JimmyM]

Everyone's got to find their own way of incorporating it and being comfortable, for sure. I'm sure a lot of folks don't wear theirs as low as I do, for example, but it works for me, and too high makes me feel bunched up. But yes, relaxation, the one thing I struggle with most of all, is very important.

 

[Matthew_84]

I can help Jimmy out on one of these.... He posted this a few pages into the thread...

2. How do you mute with right hand here? Seems to me my right thumb is in a good position to mute the lower pitched strings when I play the A, D or G strings. Sort of like how finger players use the floating thumb technique. I know Carol advocates a foam mute but I prefer not to use one.

From JimmyM: "BTW, I have to adjust one thing I said. I never noticed this until last night, but I actually allow the meaty part under my thumb to barely touch the strings when I need to mute unused strings I can't get with the left hand."

EDIT TO ADD: Sorry Jimmy, didn't realize you already answered... I didn't see any posts below this one, forgetting how mutliple-page threads worked.

 

[JimmyM]

I can help Jimmy out on one of these.... He posted this a few pages into the thread...

From JimmyM: "BTW, I have to adjust one thing I said. I never noticed this until last night, but I actually allow the meaty part under my thumb to barely touch the strings when I need to mute unused strings I can't get with the left hand."

EDIT TO ADD: Sorry Jimmy, didn't realize you already answered... I didn't see any posts below this one, forgetting how mutliple-page threads worked.

LOL! Matthew, I did think of that before I replied, but I don't know that it helps that much with ghost noting. Not like I'm forcing my hand into the strings, and when I do it, that part of my hand is always at the lower tuned string and not the one I'm playing. All my ghost noting is done with the left hand, not the right. As always, YMMV.

 

[Matthew_84]

LOL! Matthew, I did think of that before I replied, but I don't know that it helps that much with ghost noting. Not like I'm forcing my hand into the strings, and when I do it, that part of my hand is always at the lower tuned string and not the one I'm playing. All my ghost noting is done with the left hand, not the right. As always, YMMV.

LOL, we read his post very differently! I thought his muting question was a general one, not specific to muting for the purpose of ghost notes, but after re-reading it with your take on it, I think you may be right.

In that case, yes, all of my ghost note muting also comes from my left (fretting) hand. I usually use multiple left hand fingers to reduce the chance of ringing out a harmonic.

 

[Flatwoundround]

LOL, we read his post very differently! I thought his muting question was a general one, not specific to muting for the purpose of ghost notes, but after re-reading it with your take on it, I think you may be right.

In that case, yes, all of my ghost note muting also comes from my left (fretting) hand. I usually use multiple left hand fingers to reduce the chance of ringing out a harmonic.

Thanks for the follow up Mathew. You are correct in that I was curious how muting with right hand when playing pick near the neck. Typically I would palm mute when I played in the middle right between neck and bridge (I realize Carol Kaye does not advise palm muting though). So when I play near the neck I no longer have the option of palm muting since that would choke off the notes completely. But it does seem that the thumb conveniently can mute to the lower pitched strings. But yes, I was also wondering how much harder it is to ghost note near the neck since the strings are much more floppy. Most people seem to ghost note in the middle or closer to the bridge since the strings are tighter there. But can one ghost note near the neck and still get the same effect? Perhaps with just some practice one can adapt to the looser strings there? How does Carol Kaye do ghost notes given that she plays near the neck? Just curious.

Thanks again.

 

[Matthew_84]

...Most people seem to ghost note in the middle or closer to the bridge since the strings are tighter there. But can one ghost note near the neck and still get the same effect? Perhaps with just some practice one can adapt to the looser strings there? How does Carol Kaye do ghost notes given that she plays near the neck?

You know, I don't agree with Carol's recommendation that you should play with light strings and a heavy pick... Yes, you need either the strings OR the pick to be light so that the impact from making contact with the strings doesn't transfer to your hands... I just think it's better (for me anyway) to use heavier strings with a lighter pick. With the lighter pick, the pick absorbs the impact, not the strings. With heavier tension strings, the strings don't flop around as much and there's more tension up there to play ghost notes.

Before coming to this realization, I started a thread asking pick players what string tension and pick they use. I got a lot of good recommendations for a lighter pick, so I tried it, and wrote a pretty detailed pst on my findings here:

Pick Players: Your Preferred String Tension? | Page 2 | TalkBass.com

I think the whole thread deserves a read through though.

 

[JimmyM]

Matt, all I can tell you there is that if I use anything less than a Fender extra heavy, my hand starts to hurt. Did not used to be that way, though. When I was 20-40, I could do everything the opposite of what Carol says and never had a problem. All of a sudden, 40 comes, and everything changes.

 

[Matthew_84]

Matt, all I can tell you there is that if I use anything less than a Fender extra heavy, my hand starts to hurt. Did not used to be that way, though. When I was 20-40, I could do everything the opposite of what Carol says and never had a problem. All of a sudden, 40 comes, and everything changes.

Jimmy, I respect and trust your opinion, but have you tried a light pick with heavy tension strings? I personally think this combination is required for this to work.

In the post I pasted above, I observed that I could feel more resistance (impact) in my hand when I hit the string with a 3mm Big Stubby pick than I did with a .73mm nylon pick - the lighter pick collapsed and glided through the strings, where as the heavier pick would not collapse and thus needed to push the string out of the way completely to get by.

YMMV of course, but I think you need the stiffness from the heavier strings to allow the above to happen. Light strings with a light pick will require (IMO) more work to pick a string, as will heavy strings with a heavy pick. Light strings with a heavy pick will work just as fine, but the string absorbs the impact, instead of the pick, and flops all over the place.

Now one thing I must add is that I could use a lighter grasp on the heavier pick than I could with .73mm nylon pick. I needed to put a death grip on the nylon pick so that it wouldn't spin out of position in my hand, and this "death grip" would likely do more damage to the hand than anything else.

I then went to a shop and experimented with other picks. For me, a 0.71mm Dunlop Gator Grip pick was perfect. It was made from a less flexible material than the nylon pick, and the material is one that didn't require a death grip. In fact, I could use the same grip as (maybe even lighter than) the grip I could use with the 3mm pick and the pick will not spin out of position.

Also, I rotate my forearm to pick the string (like I'm twisting a door knob). There's no motion in my wrist at all. I could wear a cast on my wrist and still play fine... Though, I don't recommend playing bass with a broken wrist

 

[Danomo]

Seven years and this thread is still running... Pretty good.

I was recalling pic's of Macca, and noticed he used Carole's method from the start (pinky raised and all), but when he switched to the RIC, he moved his picking to the bridge through the '70's and 80's (but he maintained the "float"). He's back to his old ways by the neck with the Hofner these days.

I don't use a pick much on bass these days (unless the song calls for it), but I've had that hand positioning, heavy picks (but just a bit further back from the neck than Jimmy's been suggesting), since I started (more from Macca than anything). Though for jazz when I used felt picks, I did pick right at the neck.

I don't really adjust much for guitar, other than a lighter touch, and looser wrist motion, though I'm usually closer to the bridge (not uncomfortable because of the smaller body size).

 

[JimmyM]

Jimmy, I respect and trust your opinion, but have you tried a light pick with heavy tension strings? I personally think this combination is required for this to work.

I have, even though I don't do it now, and it was torture after about 15 seconds.

 

[JimmyM]

I don't use a pick much on bass these days (unless the song calls for it), but I've had that hand positioning, heavy picks (but just a bit further back from the neck than Jimmy's been suggesting)

Since lightening up on string gauges, I can move back farther, too, and do.

 

[Son of Wobble]

Seven years and this thread is still running... Pretty good.

 

[Jason Hollar]

As per another current thread, I've played a lot of rock @ blues guitar, so a pick on a bass is pretty natural for me. That said, I'm 98% finger style for jazz, blues, & funk. I just use a pick for those grinding rocking blues tunes at the end of the night. Saves my right hand finger pads from certain discomfort the next day.

Btw - I love the Clayton 1mm white triangular picks. Any way you flip it, you're good to go!

 

[StringNavigator]

EDIT: You know, the more I think about your reply, the angrier I get. Not only did you not do any research on Asia to see if what I was saying was true (it is), you then saw fit to try to school me on technique when all I was doing was trying to prevent people from injuring themselves needlessly. So it was YOU who came to this thread with a false premise, not me. Not only that, you're trying to present Rex Brown with a bass down to his knees as a technique role model rather than a guy trying to look cool in a cool band. If you want to play like that, suit yourself, but don't come crying to me when CTS comes calling.

As for whether you want to use Carol's style or not, I really don't care. This thread is for people who want to remain free of injury and still use a pick. If that's not you, there's nothing I can do about it except wish you luck when you're 50.

LOL! I've noticed that you do, as you say, get angry... and you do often on TalkBass: Jamerson Question where you wrote, "WAAAAAHHHHH!! Someome else thinks different from me!! What a loudmouth jerk!! WAAAAAAAHHHH!! Are you Carol Kaye?"

Please remember that the OP does not "OWN" the post. Everyone is allowed to speak, as the constitution states. And we should be free from other people's anger when we do so. I, for one, am not at all interested in your anger. And neither are the women or younger ones that may be using TalkBass. For their sake, not mine, please refrain from expressing your anger on line. And Carol Kaye should be respected for her GREAT place in bass history... your comments on Carol are bordering on defamation of character... and TalkBass should be angry with you for using their site as a place to harangue Carol Kaye because she does not want you on her site... I can understand why... Carol Kaye is a proven bassist, educator and amBASSador for the lower register...!

 

[Dbassmon]

Thanks Jimmy for bringing up this point!!

It actually is part of a larger topic of proper technique and the wisdom of 1) finding a teacher 2) spending time and energy working on technique.

Many musicians are self taught and pride themselves on developing their ears and own style and technique. Problem with that is... what comes naturally to players may be the cause of their playing demise if what they are doing physically injures joints and connective tissue.

How many times I have seen players digging in ridiculously hard and I always think, that has got to hurt. Pain and playing should not be used in the same sentence. At least, you should know that there is such a thing as proper technique that will allow you to play injury free.

Carol Kaye has developed a technique that works, Gary Willis is another guy with a method for finger style. One the double bass side, most players have studied Simandl Fingering method. We have hundreds of years of string playing history to learn from.

I never want music to be the source of physical pain. Learn proper hand posture, shifting, and a method to approach playing. The information is available and teacher will cut the learning curve exponentially.