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Why I keep hammering the Carol Kaye pick method

#401
SGD Lutherie said:
You do realize that the music often specifies bow direction? For short staccato phrases you often bow down on all notes.



Please do. And at full speed. And hit the strings hard. That's they key.

Here's why it sounds different; when you down stroke you are also pushing the string down towards the body. This is especially true when plucking hard. Up strokes tend to lift the string. You can't get that slamming tone up picking.

I know how to use a pick. I've been doing it for 42 years on both bass and guitar. I have no issues with my wrist. I'm also very good at cross picking. When I'm playing fast intricate parts I tend to start on an up stroke. Robert Fripp does as well.

But that's different from playing something like the Ramones where you really need to hit the strings hard to get the right tone. :) Or chugging along with a solid 1/8 note pedal. That sounds better with all down strokes. Or one finger. ;)
Click to expand...

Another very simple but effective example of this is Adam Clayton's most memorable bassline, "With or Without You".
 
#402
Am I a horrible person if I admit to having looked down on pick players in the past? There is still a certain amount of prejudice I am working through, and I will likely always be primarily a fingerstyle player, but I've been listening to some Carol Kaye and I saw a couple of videos of Bobby Vega playing with a pick (funky!) and that was enough to get me to plunk around a bit with one this last weekend. I'll want to take some care that my technique is sound, since I've fought injury in the past, but I have a taste for experimenting with a little pick playing, now, at least. I even played a bit with some pick-influenced fingerstyle techniques. Expanding my horizons.
 
#404
Hey Mark A , no just ignorant ....

Pick bass is awesome and like anything it takes a lot of work to get it happening...

Technique and tone...I play both pick and fingers ... And I was also ignorant for a long time....

But it's not just a case of grabbing the pick and having it all sewn up on 5 minutes....

Amp settings, where you pick in terms of closer to bridge or neck etc, smooth technique, how much pick you let show, type of pick etc ....

Oh yeah and dealing with people who criticise pick playing on bass....

Have fun man and enjoy the versatility of pick and fingers....irrespective of genre...

Rossa
 
#405
MarkA said:
I even played a bit with some pick-influenced fingerstyle techniques. Expanding my horizons.
Click to expand...

If you are doing it right, people shouldn't know you are playing with a pick. Two examples of that are Joe Osborn and Paul McCartney. Yes you can do certain things with a pick that are different sounding than finger style, but it doesn't have to be that way. Back in the 60s/70s people just played bass parts with no regard to pick or fingers. Just because they were using a pick they didn't sound like Chris Squire! Listen to some Average White Band. Lots of those funky bass lines, like in Cut the Cake, were played with a pick.
 
#409
OK, regarding down and up strokes and a consistent tone; While doing a couple of gigs this weekend I payed attention to what I was doing, and here's why I do it.

When you are plucking with your fingers, it's essentially all up strokes. The key here is that you are always pulling the string in the same direction. This is important if you are pedaling on a note.

Now try this; play a G on your low E string. Play 16th notes, and pluck with your thumb, obviously using all down strokes. Now do the same thing with your index finger using all up strokes. Note how it sounds note to note. Listen to the attack on the note and how the previous note continues right into it.

Now alternate between your thumb (down) and your index finger (up). Notice how the string is stopped as you switch fingers. You get a more staccato tone. This is because you have to stop the string's motion and now pull it in a different direction. Yes, the string is oscillating in an arc, but you will hear disruption in the vibrations as you switch from down to up.

The pick does the same thing, but is not as pronounced. So, when I'm playing a pedal part, such as a typical 16th or even 8ths on a single note, I use all down strokes. It sounds more consistent and stronger from note to note to me. I can get it 99% the same alternating, but I feel it just drives better, and it's not any harder to do. When I'm skipping strings or playing linear parts, I alternate my strokes. I typically start on an upstroke.

Another thing I notice is it's much harder to play all upstrokes with a pick than down. That might just be me, and because of the amount of time I've spent doing one over the other.
 
#410
Got a question, and kind of surprised you left this out (sorry, didn't read anything but the original post), but how tight do you pinch the pick? Is it loose with a lot of give, or tight with more edge?
 
#411
u84six said:
Got a question, and kind of surprised you left this out (sorry, didn't read anything but the original post), but how tight do you pinch the pick? Is it loose with a lot of give, or tight with more edge?
Click to expand...

Not sure who you are asking, but you hold it as tight as you need to so you don't drop it. Not too tight, or your hand will cramp, and you don't want it to wiggle around either.
 
#412
SGD Lutherie said:
Not sure who you are asking, but you hold it as tight as you need to so you don't drop it. Not too tight, or your hand will cramp, and you don't want it to wiggle around either.
Click to expand...

The way you pinch your pick (especially with lighter gause strings) greatly affects the tone and harmonics you get from the string. So I was just curious what his preferred method is.
 
#413
u84six said:
The way you pinch your pick (especially with lighter gause strings) greatly affects the tone and harmonics you get from the string. So I was just curious what his preferred method is.
Click to expand...

I use a fairly heavy 1.14mm purple Tortex pick. I use the same pick when I play guitar also. I use light strings on bass… currently I'm using D'Addario ProSteels, .040-.125 (5 string set). I keep my action low and I pick fairly hard at times. I generally play over the bridge pickup, unless I want a rounder tone. I prefer to pick the strings where they are stiffer, but not too close to the bridge unless I'm doing it for the tone.

I don't want to hear the pick, which is one reason I use a heavy pick. Light picks bend and make a clicky thin tone. I also strike the string with the pick at a slight angle, so the side closest the neck hits the string first. You can see the bevel worn into the pick. This reduces the click further. The guitarist Shawn Lane used to twist it the other way around.

I hold it like this. Not too much exposed.

IMG_1543.jpg
 
#414
u84six said:
The way you pinch your pick (especially with lighter gause strings) greatly affects the tone and harmonics you get from the string. So I was just curious what his preferred method is.
Click to expand...
I hold it tight enough to keep it in my hand but I don't use a death grip or anything. Loosely tight is a good way to put it. I find all that business about picks affecting tone to be pretty well moot in a practical sense. I've never once been able to identify what kind of pick or how hard someone's grip is by listening to them play, and if it made a difference, I would be able to.

EDIT: That doesn't go for plastic vs. felt or something like that that subdues the attack. Obviously I can tell the difference between a hard pick and a felt pick ;)
 
#417
JimmyM said:
I hold it tight enough to keep it in my hand but I don't use a death grip or anything. Loosely tight is a good way to put it. I find all that business about picks affecting tone to be pretty well moot in a practical sense. I've never once been able to identify what kind of pick or how hard someone's grip is by listening to them play, and if it made a difference, I would be able to.

EDIT: That doesn't go for plastic vs. felt or something like that that subdues the attack. Obviously I can tell the difference between a hard pick and a felt pick ;)
Click to expand...

I can definitely hear the difference by the way someone pinches/holds the pick. If you pinch it tight and move your fingers really close to the tip, you can generally get more click, more harmonics, and a tighter tone. On the other hand, holding it really loose and and moving your fingers towards the back gives it a more round tone, much less click, and little to no harmonics. I suspect you choose the latter. That's probably the way Carol holds it too. And I think she doesn't use the tip, which must be why she gets such a round tone without any noticeable click.
 
#418
I don't normally use a pick, but I have tried it a few times. I have never seen a felt pick.

I assume it produces a tone in between a finger, and a hard plastic pick.

Are they available in different grades of stiffness?

Do they wear out quickly?
 
#419
SGD Lutherie said:
I use a fairly heavy 1.14mm purple Tortex pick. I use the same pick when I play guitar also. I use light strings on bass… currently I'm using D'Addario ProSteels, .040-.125 (5 string set). I keep my action low and I pick fairly hard at times. I generally play over the bridge pickup, unless I want a rounder tone. I prefer to pick the strings where they are stiffer, but not too close to the bridge unless I'm doing it for the tone.

I don't want to hear the pick, which is one reason I use a heavy pick. Light picks bend and make a clicky thin tone. I also strike the string with the pick at a slight angle, so the side closest the neck hits the string first. You can see the bevel worn into the pick. This reduces the click further. The guitarist Shawn Lane used to twist it the other way around.

I hold it like this. Not too much exposed.

IMG_1543.jpg
Click to expand...

Yeah, looks like you play similar to most guitarist while someone like Carol Kaye uses the broadest part of the pick to strike the string because she says that using the point doesn't get the proper sound for electric bass. In her opinion of course. ; )
 

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