Inside edge of nut to center of 12th? It should be dead on 17". I tease Fender for their QC but it can't be that far off.
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Why is my bridge placement NEVER back far enough for proper intonation?
- Thread starter Rob Page
- Start date
- Jun 30, 2010
- 49,612
- 222,129
- Disclosures
- musician/artist/owner - Gildaxe
- Jun 30, 2010
- 49,612
- 222,129
- Disclosures
- musician/artist/owner - Gildaxe
Just the way I do it - doesn't change anything as they all intone correctly. Probably because I have basses with zero frets and the string breaks at the top of the fret (center). Not debating whatever the 'standard' method is.
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. This is a short-scale (30") 4-string fretless I just finished building. Originally I placed the bridge so the middle of the G string saddle was screwed almost fully forward and exactly at 30". Couldn't get the saddles back far enough to get the intonation right. So I moved the whole bridge back about 1/4" and now the intonation is perfect. This happens on every bass and guitar I've ever built. No one else but me experiences this?
How irritating. 
Interesting there would be that much disparity. Just to ask the obvious...the other end of the ruler is on the fretboard side of the nut, right?
For me , I usually have to bring the g saddle back about 1/8 of an inch to intonate, but not 3/8 like you show above. What strings are they?
Interesting there would be that much disparity. Just to ask the obvious...the other end of the ruler is on the fretboard side of the nut, right?
For me , I usually have to bring the g saddle back about 1/8 of an inch to intonate, but not 3/8 like you show above. What strings are they?
Yep, fretboard side of the nut. D'Addario half-rounds. 45, 65, 80, 100How irritating.
Interesting there would be that much disparity. Just to ask the obvious...the other end of the ruler is on the fretboard side of the nut, right?
For me , I usually have to bring the g saddle back about 1/8 of an inch to intonate, but not 3/8 like you show above. What strings are they?
You are certainly not alone!
On my first build the intonation was so way off that I had to move he bridge backwards by 18mm to get it to intonate and the E string saddle was still almost maxed out. Shame for the string through holes I had already drilled.......
These days I always check the bridge distance using a clip on tuner before drilling the holes and on every build the bridge is further back than it should be. I never got an explanation as to why this should be.
That is really odd, and would seem to defy the physics of strings, unless the string itself is defective. In order for an octave to work at the 12th, it has to be 1/2 the scale distance, so the G saddle has to be twice the distance from nut to 12th. Im curious to hear if a Pro has some idea how this isnt always the case. I can imagine a scenario where the difference between string gauge for the G and B string could be so great that their isnt enough travel on the saddles to compensate, but thats an extreme scenario.
Fretless. That interjects some further considerations.
The uber-important thing you need to realize about fretless bass is the string height above the board at the nut end should be LOW. I'd recommend no more than the thickness of a business card. Couple that string height with setting your strings to be as low as possible above the fingerboard without creating buzzing.
For fretted basses Fender recommends that the 1st string saddle is positioned 2 times the distance from the nut face to the center of the 12th fret plus 1/16". Each subsequent saddle is set back the same distance as the thickness of the string it is used for. You can see by their recommendation that the intonation amount is minimal if you set your string height at the nut and over the fetboard as low as possible. In the real world many players like a bit more string height, so the saddle distance is a bit further back, but nothing astronomical.
Not your situation, but it's not unheard of for newer builders to use a zero fret and set bridge position using the face of the "nut" as the referance instead of the center of the zero fret.
As long as you've positioned your frets (or inlaid markers) properly then notes that are higher than what they should be then the string height is pretty much the only factor that can cause that.
One other idea is to delve into the way we actually hear and perceive the produced notes, as well as some of the more esoteric factors of exactly WHAT we are listening to. "Inherant Inharmonicity" due to the string's non-linear stiffness vs. vibrating length might be something else worth doing a bit of research into.
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Thats an interesting point. If the nut action, neck relief, or string action are really high, pressing the string down on a fretless would make them sharp, but you really have to be out for that to happen on a fretted bass. @subdude67 maybe you already answered this: what is your nut slot height, neck relief, and did you press in some witness points? I feel like there must be some missing piece in the common wisdom of setup for your problem to be possible, enquiring minds. Calling @Turnaround !
One more (probably annoying) question, did you cut your own fret slots using Fretfinder or similar, or is it a manufactured neck? Grasping at straws here.
One more (probably annoying) question, did you cut your own fret slots using Fretfinder or similar, or is it a manufactured neck? Grasping at straws here.
Turnaround
Commercial User
The bass in the OP's example is fretless. Brings up the question of how the string is being stopped. Is the finger right over the 12th fret line?
When you stop the string as on the left, it will be sharp because the vibrating length of the string stops where the red arrow is. Moving the finger back from the fret line ensures that stop point is right at the fret line.
When you stop the string as on the left, it will be sharp because the vibrating length of the string stops where the red arrow is. Moving the finger back from the fret line ensures that stop point is right at the fret line.
Attachments
For a fretless, Turnaround mentions an important point i was about to mention.
Setting intonation on a fretless is very different to a fretted, and there are aspects that can easily result in mistakes, resulting in the saddles seeming to need to be much further back than you would expect.
The first fretless i owned, when i tried to set intonation it seemed to require the saddles insanely far back. Then after some investigation i realised what Turnaround illustrates.:
You do not place the centre of your finger at the point you want the vibration to terminate at, because the vibration actually terminates approximately at the bridge-side edge of your finger instead. This can be tested using a tuner and a fretles bass with many precise position markers or fretlines.
For a fretless bass guitar, the bridge should be positioned just like a fretted, and the saddles should be in approximately similar positions. After all, most fretless bass guitars have their bridges identically placed to the fretted version.
Once you realise the string vibration terminates near the edge of your finger, you will find setting intonation results in approximately similar positions to a fretted.
This is correct for fretted and fretless.
Looking at your photo, you have positioned the G saddle 3/8" behind the scale point, that is extremely far back and incorrect, this suggests you may be using an incorrect approach to intonation.
In my opinion that is an incorrectly positioned bridge.
However ...
This suggests this happens on fretted guitars too, but it is important to consider fretted a separate problem.
My guess is that you are using incorrect or unreliable intonation methods, many people do because the commonly stated intonation methods (2nd harmomic-12th or open-12th) are dumbed-down, imprecise and prone to error.
For fretted guitars it is certain that very thin gauges (such as thin plain steel strings) result in the saddle being very close behind (1mm) or exactly on the scale point. If this is not happening for you then you are probably making mistakes.
In my 3 cases I used a ready made neck but I did make my own nut, the string height is as low as I an get it with minimal releif. But maybe I could file the not slots lower, I have never thought of that. But since I am happy with my action I don't think it is significantly too high.
Yeah, if the nut was high enough that fretting below the 5th bent it sharp, it would be a bear to play. I’m stumped, hopefully somebody with more knowledge or experience with this problem will weigh in.
Thanks everyone. Yes, this is happing on all the instruments I make, fretted or fretless, guitars or bases. I'm using a strobe tuner and my ears to set intonation. The lower strings pull sharp at the 12th fret unless I bring the bridge back 1/8" - 1/4" beyond the scale length. I use D'Addario strings. Action at nut is pretty low and I've experienced this on a zero fret build as well.
Isn't "short scale" typically 30.5"?
Also, is this a lined fretless, or are you basing your intonation issues on the location of the lines or side dots?
By the way, I had this very same issue with my first run of custom guitar bridges, but it was a manufacturing error, not a bridge placement error.
Modern Strat-style saddles will not intonate properly on a chopped Tele-style bridge plate that was originally designed for barrels.
Live and learn.
Also, is this a lined fretless, or are you basing your intonation issues on the location of the lines or side dots?
By the way, I had this very same issue with my first run of custom guitar bridges, but it was a manufacturing error, not a bridge placement error.
Modern Strat-style saddles will not intonate properly on a chopped Tele-style bridge plate that was originally designed for barrels.
Live and learn.
