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Why is Scooping bad?? Hell, is it?

#41
I think the mid scoop has a bad reputation - I generally think scooping is actually the way to go when you are EQ-ing. Cut, don't boost.
Like most things, if you overdo it, it's not gonna sound good. A super deep mid scoop, a massive mid hump, turning the bass knob all the way up - all equally bad.

Remember too, that midrange covers a lot of ground, and in spite of it's name, the "bass" is a midrange instrument. A mid scoop at 350Hz is not the same as a mid scoop at 800Hz.

Anyone on this forum ever play a bass with two pickups, and have them both on at the same time?
Anyone on this forum ever use a built in knob or switch on your amp called something like "voice," "enhance," or "contour"?
Even something like the "ultra low" switch, which you think is a bass boost (and it does boost bass frequency a little), is actually just a pretty good size mid scoop.

The mid scoop, applied judiciously, and at the right frequency just works.
 
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#42
I like mids and have moved away from my 1990’s high school days of smiley faced GEQ’s... but the other week at an outdoor streamed show I was getting lost and decided to hit the contour button on my GK. Things cleaned right up.

then I drank two more beers and started playing too loud upon second listen, but that’s a topic for another thread....
 
#44
Scooping isnt inherently bad. In fact, a well placed scoop at like 1k-2k can often round out an overly defined sound. The classic "scooping the mids will bury you in a mix" is correct, but you can compensate for it by raising your overall volume.

I do this all the time with my band. I have a compressor set with a decent amount of compression (6:1 ratio, about 75% mix) and maybe a 2-3 dB volume bump to have the peaks pop above the guitar for the few times they hit. Sounds great upon playback and nobody complains on stage. I also make sure to keep a little of the 300 Hz range in there to maintain pitch definition, but that's entirely bass dependent.
 
#45
It'll sound great in your bedroom, but as soon as you put it in a band context you will disappear. I love the Big Muff, but you can't use it in a band. I don't know how David Gilmour does it ... highly paid and talented sound engineers I guess. But in a band context, you stomp on a muff and you might as well unplug and go home.
 
#50
Scooping is the "Roundwound" of EQ. As in everybody does it and there is some vocal objection to it.

But a Big Ole +1 to sounding good solo does not guarantee sounding good in a mix.

So instead of saying Good/Bad I'd say everything depends on the application. The bass guitar mic'd or direct will "seem" different based on the other instruments in the mix so some cases, some rooms, some PAs your scoop may be beneficial and some times it may not. I guess the more important thing is to understand how to EQ my own instrument for the room.

I deliberately left out "recording" because I'd like to dream that an engineer would take care of it.
 
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#51
ZBirdV8 said:
There is kind of this running joke, at least in heavy metal that guitarists over scoop their tones all the time. I was wondering why this thing that is apparently universally bad is also so prominent. I make an effort to avoid scooping my tone because I know it's fundamentally bad, but I don't really understand why-it doesn't sound terrible to me. Is it as bad as it's made out to be? What's going on here?
Click to expand...

As a sound guy as well as a bass player I can tell you that often a scooped tone gets BURIED in a band mix. Mids cut through.

In my experience, it works best when a bass player sends me a pretty wide frequency range and lets me sculpt it at the board.

That's pretty hard for many to do though. We tend to get latched onto "my tone".

There's a huge misconception out there that "Any good sound guy can make any bass tone work". The truth is "You can't polish a turd". I can only do so much with a scooped tone.

That being said, there are rare cases (slap bass in a three piece band for instance) where a scooped tone just works. But, again, those cases are rare.

Mature musicians do what's best for the band and the overall mix. Most musicians want their favorite bedroom tone on stage. And that usually sucks in a mix. But it usually doesn't suck so bad I can't fix it somewhat. It's just more work.
 
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#52
Watchootognbout said:
Here is what happens when you EQ the opposite of a "scoop"
In short,you are heard.
Click to expand...


Not trying to start anything, and I get that art is subjective, and you can like what you like,,, but I think that recording sounds pretty bad.
To my ears, it just sounds very thin, and way over EQ'd. Not just the bass, but all the instruments, and the whole mix in general.

It's a style choice, I get it - some artist put oil on canvas, and others duct tape a banana to a wall. Call it art, and if theres an audience for it, then I guess you're doing something right. Those guys have 2k upvotes and 200k views, so I guess they're doing something right.

A little bump in the mids can be an effective way to "cut thru" a mix, but this is a pretty extreme example.
 
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#54
One reason I love my deltalite ii neo 12 speakers so much is the upper mid and presence peak inherent to them.

starting at 1kHz, there is a pretty huge rise that sticks around, with various peaks, until roughly 2 to 3 octaves above 1kHz (if memory serves).

As a tone generator, it's amazing... and I love a scoop tone too but you can't use that if you want to be heard, instead of just felt. Even if I scoop my tone somewhat (Such as for slapping stuff), my deltalite built in response compensates pretty well for it.

It's up to you. I personally want to get HEARD, baby

However, as I've now moved to modelling for my entire chain and tone (again, I know, hopefully to stay this time!).... I'm adding a first order choke to my deltalites around 1kHz to even out that huge increase, and adding a midrange (TBD) to fill in the rest of the frequency range (until the horn can do something useful). Turning my cabs into FRFR cabs..... at least one of them, since I happen to own one that isn't getting used.

So in my modelling tone, I again have to make sure that i choose an IR(s) that has plenty of mids to it.... otherwise my tone will disappear when playing live.


Also, there is the fletcher munson curve - for quieter volumes, we need to emphasize lows and highs to sound good. Louder, we need to emphasize mids more to sound EXACTLY THE SAME in a loud venue. It's strange, but it's well understood scientific fact. Many, MANY car stereos have a built in loudness compensation as you turn the volume down. "Loudness" compensation is a Fletcher Munson curve compensation eq to be used when volume is low, and it emphasizes lows and highs to make up for the almost all midrange sound that you hear when music is quiet.

So don't forget that when you play your next big loud show - your scooped bass tone will be much more scooped sounding when used very loud.... so you probably want a different eq setup for loud live gigs.
 
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#55
My scooping story: I was in my very first gigging band. The guitarist had been in a lot of bands before and I generally deferred to his experience. So at rehearsal one time, he asked if he could fiddle with my EQ, and I agreed to let him. I had been running Lo/Mid/Hi about 7/7/4 (out of 10). He winds up changing it to something like 9/2/7. I play, we figure it sounds good.

So at our next gig, we start playing our first song, and he shouts across to me, "Turn down!"

I say, "Turn down? You sure?", because I didn't have my volume up terribly high.

He says, "Yeah, turn down - it sounds really BOOMY!"

I think, "Boomy. Hm." So I dial my EQ back to 7/7/4 and leave the volume where it was.

"How's that?"

"Much better, perfect!"
 
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#56
ZBirdV8 said:
There is kind of this running joke, at least in heavy metal that guitarists over scoop their tones all the time. I was wondering why this thing that is apparently universally bad is also so prominent. I make an effort to avoid scooping my tone because I know it's fundamentally bad, but I don't really understand why-it doesn't sound terrible to me. Is it as bad as it's made out to be? What's going on here?
Click to expand...

For great metal tones on both guitar and bass, try stacking eqs. I get good results by scooping the tone in the first eq stage, then boosting mids in the second stage. Gets you to Death territory really quick.

Grindcore tones are done the same, but with more extreme eq adjustments.

Don't forget a high quality distortion/fuzz with a blend if possible!
 
#58
ZBirdV8 said:
There is kind of this running joke, at least in heavy metal that guitarists over scoop their tones all the time. I was wondering why this thing that is apparently universally bad is also so prominent. I make an effort to avoid scooping my tone because I know it's fundamentally bad, but I don't really understand why-it doesn't sound terrible to me. Is it as bad as it's made out to be? What's going on here?
Click to expand...
The problem with the smiley faced EQ pattern - boosted bass and treble and scooped out mids, is that you get covered up in the mix.

The bass drum has the bottom end down - you can't compete with that, the guitars and keys have the high mids and highs, and about the only good sonic space left to give the bass good definition is the low-mids from ~250Hz to ~500Hz. That is not just the only space left, that's a really good place to be. You will have all kinds of good definition in the mix (people can hear the individual notes you are playing), and it also gives you a good chest thump when playing loudly.

If you cut those frequencies, you will pretty well disappear when playing in a group. Scooping them out sounds good when playing by your self or with acoustic guitars that are actually playing acoustically and not amplified, but do that in a group and everyone will see you playing but not have a clue what notes you're actually playing. Most folks use a pretty scooped setting for playing slap and it sounds great, right until you start playing in a group. Then the slap gets obscured by the rest of the music.

So a scooped sound is good when playing low enough levels, good when practicing, and good when you have solos. When playing with the rest of the band...not so good.
 
#59
ZBirdV8 said:
There is kind of this running joke, at least in heavy metal that guitarists over scoop their tones all the time. I was wondering why this thing that is apparently universally bad is also so prominent. I make an effort to avoid scooping my tone because I know it's fundamentally bad, but I don't really understand why-it doesn't sound terrible to me. Is it as bad as it's made out to be? What's going on here?
Click to expand...
OK...just realized you were asking about scooped EQ in guitars, not in basses. Sorry for the previous message.

The problem with scooped guitars is that a lot of the time that low boost is actually low-mids, no lows. That eats into your sonic space and can cause all kinds of trouble. Had a guitarist who changed his EQ for a particular song we did and it really muddied things up. He had no definition and was messing up my definition too. Finally at practice one time I had him run that EQ with his amp next to mine like it normally was on a small stage and then he heard it. He changed his EQ a bit and still got the desired tone without muddying up my sound.

Also had our Keyboardist who for some reason put her one finger down on a D (D on 5th fret of A string) that I was playing a lot during a song. I wasn't playing a run on that D because there were other things going on in the song, but I was using a syncopated rhythm on it. She'd land her finger on that D and hold it as a constant tone and you couldn't hear my syncopated rhythm at all. In fact to me, the combination sounded like feedback and hurt my ears. About the third time she did that, I looked at her keyboard to see what she was playing and sure enough, it wasn't a chord or a pattern, she just planted her index finger on the D.

I must have told on 4 separate occasions not to do that and she'd always apologize afterwards but still did it. I finally told her, "just play that D an octave higher would you?". That made sense to her and she could do that. Problem was she used to practice that song on her own before the band did it and she always held that D that was obscuring my part. It was easier for her to play it up an octave than to stop playing it entirely, and when she did, the song sounded good again.

You have to keep in mind sonic spacing when playing with a group regardless of what instrument you use.
 
#60
two fingers said:
In my experience, it works best when a bass player sends me a pretty wide frequency range and lets me sculpt it at the board.

That's pretty hard for many to do though. We tend to get latched onto "my tone".
Click to expand...

I've alway been curious about this. FOH usually talk the bassist into letting them either: (1) tap the DI signal at the beginning of the effects chain, or (2) tap the DI signal from the amp pre-eq, as opposed to post-eq. The reasoning to tapping at the beginning of the signal chain is to have a constant signal in case the effects chain craps out; and tapping pre-eq gives the FOH a wide frequency range, as you stated.

This pretty much strips the bassist off any say over their sound. The expensive voodoo magical, snake-oil, tone -enchancing pedal that I just paid a lot of money for, can't be used. If I were Fieldy, and advise the FOH that my tone in the band is a mid cut /high boost, I'm still at the mercy of the FOH giving me a mid dominant tone because they think that sounds better in that specific room.

So my question is, do FOH every ask the guitarist to run their amps with all the knobs at noon, so you can have a wide range frequency to work with, or do you only pick on the bassist? LOL
 

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