Double Bass Why isn't Jazz that popular? (DB forum thread)

[Mayers]

It would depend on what analysis you used.



How is 'formal value' measured?



I don't know where you are from, but here in the UK I think there are quite a few performing arts schools that do exactly that.

Here's one:

Invalid Link Removed

I would be surprised if the USA didn't have many more.

I live in Canada and if you go to college or at an university, you will learn Jazz or Classical music and nothing else.

Well, everything you can learn in rock/pop music are basic theory for jazz. So learn jazz theory and no other kind of music will have secrets.

 

[fingerbun]

Cool!



I do get paid to play, but I'd pass up a gig if Ron Carter was in town because I'd get more out of hearing him than I would out of any one of my gigs. And I while I've danced and drank and varous other activities to the Beatles, I wouldn't put Paul Mc on a level with Carter (or, for a more instrumentally equivalent comparison, Bob Crankshaw on slab) as a player. As a composer of catchy, hooky pop hits, he's without peer. That doesn't mean his contribution to music as a serious undertaking is as great as his contribution to music, period.

I'm beginning to realize that there's no way I can pretend that I don't draw a line between what I consider the serious and the merely entertaining. But I don't bother anyone who doesn't like or play something serious, and frankly, logging on here and seeing other people (not you) who claim the same instrument or love for music bashing one of its most challenging forms out of... ? really bugs me. What do these jazz bashers want? They go out to bars, get drunk, play Mustang Sally and girls wiggle. Why aren't wiggling girls enough to keep them happy (Kinda like a "You can keep your book l'arnin', you can keep your notes and your charts. All I need is three chords, three big-bootied women and a PBR" attitude)? They have to take the next step and attack forms of music that cause people to think rather than wiggle? On a forum supposedly dedicated to musicians??????????????

I think we have a lot in common in our outlooks.

True story....if I ever got to meet McCartney I couldn't shut up about it. But my upright teacher did. In the early 60s he was recording with the London Philharmonic (I think) at Abbey Road and the Beatles were in the next studio. Both studios stopped for afternoon tea at the same time and they hung out together. He never thought much of it and I found out about it from someone else, but he confirmed it when I asked. To him they were not serious musicians, just upstarts with silly haircuts, so why bring them up when we are talking about MUSIC?

But he would dismiss most of the serious jazz players as well. "Their technique is better, but why can't they play serious music?"

 

[RBrownBass]

This says more about the work ethic of jazz musicians than anything.

Jazz musicians have no choice but to have a work ethic where study of music is regarded.

I don't care what music people listen too, but someone who plays 1 4 5 blues and listens to hinder should not try to act like they have as much musical talent as ray brown. Im not going to go on web md and learn about arthritis and then argue with a doctor about how his opinion is elitist and inherently wrong.

Agreed, except for cases where the guy really is talented (Example: a jazz player who plays with the blues or rock guy for the $$$).

Who is "hinder"?

EDIT: Nevermind... I youtubed. Sounds yet again like Pearl Jam or Stone Temple Pilots or somebody like that. Close enough...

Btw I think pino and Paul are both killin.

Agreed. Pino's the better player by miles. Paul is the proven composer.

 

[RBrownBass]

I think we have a lot in common in our outlooks.

True story....if I ever got to meet McCartney I couldn't shut up about it. But my upright teacher did. In the early 60s he was recording with the London Philharmonic (I think) at Abbey Road and the Beatles were in the next studio. Both studios stopped for afternoon tea at the same time and they hung out together. He never thought much of it and I found out about it from someone else, but he confirmed it when I asked. To him they were not serious musicians, just upstarts with silly haircuts, so why bring them up when we are talking about MUSIC?

In the early 60s, the Beatles hadn't yet accomplished much in the way of songwriting. I don't know that your teacher would have changed his mind by the late 60s, but he is the blind squirrel who found a nut if he's talking about the Please Please Me/I Wanna Hold Your Hand/Love Me Do era. It was crap, for the most part.

But he would dismiss most of the serious jazz players as well. "Their technique is better, but why can't they play serious music?"

How should I put this... Classical-only players are a bit too light in the loafers for me to care what they think about much of anything, really.

 

[fingerbun]

In the early 60s, the Beatles hadn't yet accomplished much in the way of songwriting. I don't know that your teacher would have changed his mind by the late 60s, but he is the blind squirrel who found a nut if he's talking about the Please Please Me/I Wanna Hold Your Hand/Love Me Do era. It was crap, for the most part.



How should I put this... Classical-only players are a bit too light in the loafers for me to care what they think about much of anything, really.

It wouldn't have mattered if it was the Sgt Pepper sessions, my teacher wouldn't have got excited. But he moved to Australia in 1965 so yes it had to be earlier.

 

[topo morto]

I live in Canada and if you go to college or at an university, you will learn Jazz or Classical music and nothing else.

If you study history, you won't talk much about things that happened yesterday, or two weeks ago. Those things tend to be discussed more in sociology or politics classes. It doesn't mean it's not part of the same continuum of events... just a different way of looking at it.

Well, everything you can learn in rock/pop music are basic theory for jazz.

are low pass filters part of theory for jazz?

is the use of distortion to alter the harmonic sense of a polyphonic part, part of theory for jazz?

Can I use jazz theory to notate the harmony in the first seven seconds of this : Dr Dre - Lolo (Intro) - YouTube ?

Edit - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Note

 

[Mayers]

If you study history, you won't talk much about things that happened yesterday, or two weeks ago. Those things tend to be discussed more in sociology or politics classes. It doesn't mean it's not part of the same continuum of events... just a different way of looking at it.



are low pass filters part of theory for jazz?

is the use of distortion to alter the harmonic sense of a polyphonic part, part of theory for jazz?

Can I use jazz theory to notate the harmony in the first seven seconds of this : Dr Dre - Lolo (Intro) - YouTube ?

Edit - Deep Note - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An effect don't change the note played, only how we hear it. I think the use of effects like distortion is just an artistic thing and not an theory thing.

Yes jazz and classical theory can notate the harmony at the start. it is only a chord with a volume crescendo.

EDIT : I just saw your link with the wik, and it is what I thought it was. nothing fancy, nothing that can't be notated. There is some music that is way more complex that come with a score.



Belive it or not, there is a score of that music, someone wrote that music for an orchestra, musci theory knows no boundaries and well rock has a lot of limit in what you can learn from it than from jazz or classical.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Can I use jazz theory to notate the harmony in the first seven seconds of this : Dr Dre - Lolo (Intro) - YouTube ?

[tangent]
Do you mean the synth portamento? You could use basic aural skills to reconstruct that. It's a triple octave synth patch with 5ths in between each 8ve. There are two slow glissando lines: one starting from a high Eb and moving down to F; and the other starting from a lower G and moving up to F. And none of that is "jazz theory" - it's just listening to what's there. You'd learn the same basic skills in most classical ear training courses as well.
[/tangent]

 

[chris1125]

I think our forum has been taken over DB guys :/

 

[topo morto]

An effect don't change the note played, only how we hear it.

But 'how we hear it' is the important thing - not what was played.

EDIT - and of course, effects can change the pitches heard, in many ways.

I think the use of effects like distortion is just an artistic thing and not an theory thing.

That's because conventional music theory is very narrow.

Not all sounds can be easily thought of in terms of notes. Look at the microtonal piece I linked to a few pages back.
Believe it or not, some people in the computer music field would rather look down on those who still think of music in terms of notes!

Yes jazz and classical theory can notate the harmony at the start. it is only a chord with a volume crescendo.

Did you read the wiki link? (I edited it in just after posting)

 

[Jhengsman]

I don,t know if they will dissect any Ron Carter music but they never dissect Paul or any other pop/rock/punk music. Jazz and classical music is where it is when you go to a music school. They will teach you the more complex type of music. Rock is just too simple and has no formal value.

The truth is, no school will teach you stage presence or how to do your band marketing. Nor they will show you anything that you see/ear on tv.

It seems to me that jazz started its downward slide in mass popularity about the same time that the Berklee College and formal education in what was the street style began

 

[topo morto]

[tangent]
Do you mean the synth portamento? You could use basic aural skills to reconstruct that. It's a triple octave synth patch with 5ths in between each 8ve. There are two slow glissando lines: one starting from a high Eb and moving down to F; and the other starting from a lower G and moving up to F. And none of that is "jazz theory" - it's just listening to what's there. You'd learn the same basic skills in most classical ear training courses as well.
[/tangent]

So you reckon it's very different from the THX sound effect as described in the wiki link?

Deep Note - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

THX Sound Effect - Deep Note - YouTube

 

[Mayers]

But 'how we hear it' is the important thing - not what was played.



That's because conventional music theory is very narrow.

Not all sounds can be easily thought of in terms of notes. Look at the microtonal piece I linked to a few pages back.
Believe it or not, some people in the computer music field would rather look down on those who still think of music in terms of notes!



Did you read the wiki link? (I edited it in just after posting)

It isn't narrow, it is more open than what you think. You know that you can write where the distortion effect is on and when it is off ... like they write when you play pizzicato and when you come back at arco playing.

Yes I read it but I was writting my post when you edit yours.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

The sound can be approximated vocally by two (or more) people by both starting on the same note, then each continuously diverging, one up and one down, until the same note is reached two octaves apart and then sustaining for several moments.

Or by doing the same with a synth patch.

 

[topo morto]

You know that you can write where the distortion effect is on and when it is off

Sure... but do you consider that the distortion generates sum and difference frequencies which change the harmonies that you hear?

 

[Mayers]

It seems to me that jazz started its downward slide in mass popularity about the same time that the Berklee College and formal education in what was the street style began

Hum, when jazz slide in mass popularity, you saw much much much simple music emerge like rock and pop.

 

[Mayers]

Sure... but do you consider that the distortion generates sum and difference frequencies which change the harmonies that you hear?

it cuts the sound wave that make the distortion but it still is the same note

 

[topo morto]

it cuts the sound wave that make the distortion but it still is the same note

And for a chord...?

 

[Mayers]

And for a chord...?

it works the same

 

[topo morto]

The sound can be approximated vocally by two (or more) people by both starting on the same note, then each continuously diverging, one up and one down, until the same note is reached two octaves apart and then sustaining for several moments.

Well, two voices wouldn't sound as good as 30!

It's a triple octave synth patch with 5ths in between each 8ve. There are two slow glissando lines: one starting from a high Eb and moving down to F; and the other starting from a lower G and moving up to F.

unless I'm reading you wrong, you're saying there that it's basically the sound of notes converging? That's not what the wiki article says, nor how I hear it. The sound is of continual divergence, surely...?