Double Bass Why isn't Jazz that popular? (DB forum thread)

[HunterBrodt]

Considering all the eliteism in todays jazz-scene, I find it quite ironic that jazz was banned in the Third Reich.

Some of you guys would make some pretty good party-members...

Brutal man... Bring on the death metal!!!

 

[DeathFromBelow]

Brutal man... Bring on the death metal!!!

It's spelled "brOOhtalz"!

 

[Mokebass]

Why isn't "classical" music more popular these days?

 

[RBrownBass]

Why isn't "classical" music more popular these days?

It (or something orchestral with bowed strings and horns - close enough )'s all over the place. Check the soundtracks of most films and you'll find plenty of it. Check the bandrooms of your high schools and middle schools and you'll find plenty of stuff that sounds like it. And no one questions their purpose. No one's called any of the composers "wankers" for wanting to write what they wrote, no matter how challenging it is for the musician to execute.

Treyzer's misstatements a couple pages back would actually apply to classical music. You won't get too much commentary from EBG-only players on actually playing it because they don't have a spot in an ensemble- no point of reference.

 

[RBrownBass]

"but could he have done what Pino did in terms of creating those lines?"


If Pino was checking this thread he would be embarrassed reading his name associated with these valuable comments. Can not even mention Jaco and Pino in the same book when it comes to creating bass lines however sexy Pinos lines are! Last week I gave up on telling my son the difference between barn and cage eggs just couldn't get it!

I just found out from my mom like a month ago that almost all eggs are brown or brownish when laid. Some are bleached white later and sold to people who think there's something wrong with brown eggs.

And yeah, Pino would be saddened to read some of the stuff here. I'd like to think Paul would, too, but I don't know for sure. And he's one of my composing heroes.

 

[Mokebass]

I think Treyser's comments were interesting and he is clearly a very accomplished musician and bass player and I give due respect.

My point is that good jazz, like good "classical" music, does not need amplification. Drums (percussion), double bass (strings), and piano (both) and vocals (lets not go there) is a form of music that played well can be perfect in its own genre.

Then electric amplification of instruments came along, for better or worse.

 

[fingerbun]

Undoubtedly McCartney! Nevertheless I wouldn't swap my chops with him for a split second!! Sam Jones for sure or Mingus or Chambers! McCartney? Don't be ridiculous, like Clapton (God) he couldn't swing to save his life! Nice guy though with a sweet voice! He pays for the mass population. KTfunk put it nicely when he said "Jazz is a higher form of art. It's not meant to appeal to the masses."
One thing for sure jazz cats are great educators and it is up to the student to decide where to stop, unfortunately most bass players today don't even feel the need to educate themselves. When I see some of the DB players of other styles you can tell straight up if they jazz cats trying to make a living lending their skills or some music enthusiast, just look at the contorted fingers in any case various amount of respect to anyone who can be bothered putting time in any instrument whether its for personal growth or just to hop on stage to enjoy the appreciation of the audience.

So you concede McCartney is a pro. You then assert that he can't play jazz. Why did you earlier suggest non-jazz styles were for amateurs?

I note that you also said earlier jazz was the only style requiring disciplined practice, yet haven't picked up on the relevance of Simandl.

You have also talked about the complexity of jazz without acknowledging that a lot of it is simple music that any hack can play. I think the example I raised with you was Darktown Strutter's Ball, but I can get my fake books and list a few hundred if necessary. (And I think when I checked your profile Dixieland was one of the styles you played?)

With respect, it seems your opinion is informed totally by your personal love of jazz without any regard for objective facts. Which of course is your prerogative, but it's a shame that you persist in belittling others for the heinous crime of having different tastes from you.

 

[fingerbun]

"but could he have done what Pino did in terms of creating those lines?"


If Pino was checking this thread he would be embarrassed reading his name associated with these valuable comments. Can not even mention Jaco and Pino in the same book when it comes to creating bass lines however sexy Pinos lines are! Last week I gave up on telling my son the difference between barn and cage eggs just couldn't get it!

Remember when I said earlier that jazz guys come into pop styles and it often just sounds all wrong because they don't get the music?

I wonder if we've worked together at some stage

I don't know Pino. If you do feel free to ask him to post....otherwise not sure that you can speak for him.

 

[fingerbun]

I think Treyser's comments were interesting and he is clearly a very accomplished musician and bass player and I give due respect.

My point is that good jazz, like good "classical" music, does not need amplification. Drums (percussion), double bass (strings), and piano (both) and vocals (lets not go there) is a form of music that played well can be perfect in its own genre.

Then electric amplification of instruments came along, for better or worse.

Now that's a whole other can of worms.

You just shot several people, including Larry Carlton who Treyser played with, and Jaco.

 

[JtheJazzMan]

I just found out from my mom like a month ago that almost all eggs are brown or brownish when laid. Some are bleached white later and sold to people who think there's something wrong with brown eggs.

And yeah, Pino would be saddened to read some of the stuff here. I'd like to think Paul would, too, but I don't know for sure. And he's one of my composing heroes.

Imagine the shock of some people to further realise eggs are covered in bird faeces and mucous when laid.

 

[fingerbun]

I just found out from my mom like a month ago that almost all eggs are brown or brownish when laid. Some are bleached white later and sold to people who think there's something wrong with brown eggs.

And yeah, Pino would be saddened to read some of the stuff here. I'd like to think Paul would, too, but I don't know for sure. And he's one of my composing heroes.

In our chook pen the colour of eggs is more or less determined by the breed of chicken. When we had white chooks we used to get white eggs (not because the chooks were white...just the breed). We currently run Austrolorps and Rhode Island Reds which lay brown.

Paul has a farm, he probably gets fresh eggs, I wonder if Pino does?

I wonder if chickens who like jazz lay more intellectually satisfying eggs?

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Remember when I said earlier that jazz guys come into pop styles and it often just sounds all wrong because they don't get the music?

You mean like Ron Carter did with Tribe Called Quest?
A Tribe Called Quest - Verses From The Abstract - YouTube

Meh. Chick Corea/McBride/Brian Blade not selling out venues? I dunno. I was there. Woulda helped if they weren't charging $60/pp on a midweek night. Certainly unfortunate but a signal that jazz is dead? Not likely. More like an example of bad business/marketing.

I dunno, this thread is full starting to sound like it's full of trolls who don't even bother to look into the scene to understand what's happening. Trey's Elephant analogy is very appropriate. Yeah, it's not popular. So ****ing what? Most of us who are passionately innit don't care and we move on with life and play for people who do appreciate it.

And you want proof that Jazz is dead? Don't look at the Bad Plus. They're not even straight ahead jazz - they're doing avant garde and they have a following! I've been to multiple shows of theirs and they're always selling out - in ROCK venues! They got all sorts of people coming that don't even look like jazz listeners. Pink Martini, Squirrel Nut Zippers, Dirty Dozen Brass Band... they're jazzish as well.

I think it's pretty hard to pin down the state of jazz these days. Jazz festivals all over the world are still fairly popular, but those are also being "diluted" with non-jazz acts. The old jazz generation does have a conundrum that they could probably better connect with younger venues, but as with all things in history - everything is cyclical. I won't guess where jazz is in it's cycle - but considering that most forms of jazz have not become extinct - things are generally going to be good in terms of survivability. Many rock/pop forms have come and gone - disco, ska come to mind. Dixieland is still around. IMO, jazz is dead when people stop cramming in to see the band at Preservation Hall in NOLA. I don't think that scene is slowing down.

Esperanza Spalding is not a fluke - the girl has f'n mad chops and deserves that recognition. Yeah, there's plenty of garbage out there but I'm hopeful that people can still recognize good music when they hear it. As long as that is true, jazz will always remain alive, because the quality is there. As I've said before, jazz is very alive in Europe (same goes for the Blues).

As for who is the better player, jazz vs. non-jazz? I dunno. Again, another stupid dick waving contest. Jazz players certainly put a ton of time in their craft on average, but I'd say that guys like Jimmy Page, Buddy Guy, Brian May, SRV, Prince, Hendrix, (etc etc) did too. Heck, I remember hearing that Buddy Guy studied a little bit of Jim Hall's playing in an interview - inspired him to throw in a couple jazz chords here and there. Miles certainly did call SRV a mother****er (a compliment). And any bluesrock guitarist worth his salt knows that he owes his burning guitar solos to Charlie Christian who was pretty much the first to ever do it with an amplifier.

 

[timobee4]

Nothing to pick upon that! Montag and Simandl were part of my schooling many years ago.

I guess when I think about it I see all these people not fully understanding what jazz is to some of us and they never will as they too busy stating that its dead perhaps out of spite because its out of grasp out of reach! I appreciate it! I myself very much like that when it comes to rockabilly weed whacking styles! For years I told people that I cant stand it and what not, but the reality was that I just never had the time to practice and to make it my own! I use Spiro Mittels low action, or Gamuts and just never had the heart beating my bass up, yet I watch it on you tube mesmerised as some of these guys/girls clearly putting on a great show with their slapping hands, sadly the other hand fingering is pretty poor most times.

By the way Paul and Pino were the first bass players made me think a little outside the box when I was younger. Now at 44 I focus purely on interpreting NHOP, Chambers, R Brown, Sam Jones, CH, and anything else just dont exist. Its a personal journey of a very time consuming practicing, giving up everything that forces me think outside my task. That is why when I hear anyone mocking jazz without understanding the road we are on, my personal feelings get a little misplaced. After all I dont care much about any other style as I will never hear anybody's great effort that falls outside my set boundaries. Growing up I played in a Punk band, Blues band, Funk band, Fusion band so I do have a very good understanding believe me. And there is something funny for you to chew, I listen to Mingus or Eminem in my car!! Marshalls phrasing appeal to me a great deal.

My old Dixie Band was such a sophisticated band with primo cats that I call it jazz any day!

 

[fingerbun]

Nothing to pick upon that! Montag and Simandl were part of my schooling many years ago.

Did you say that jazz is unique in requiring disciplined practice over an extended period?

Does Simandl require disciplined practice over an extended period?

Was Simandl designed with jazz in mind or some other musical style?

Is your reasoning a representative sample of the superior mental agility that sets jazz players apart?

 

[fingerbun]

You mean like Ron Carter did with Tribe Called Quest?
A Tribe Called Quest - Verses From The Abstract - YouTube

Meh. Chick Corea/McBride/Brian Blade not selling out venues? I dunno. I was there. Woulda helped if they weren't charging $60/pp on a midweek night. Certainly unfortunate but a signal that jazz is dead? Not likely. More like an example of bad business/marketing.

I dunno, this thread is full starting to sound like it's full of trolls who don't even bother to look into the scene to understand what's happening. Trey's Elephant analogy is very appropriate. Yeah, it's not popular. So ****ing what? Most of us who are passionately innit don't care and we move on with life and play for people who do appreciate it.

And you want proof that Jazz is dead? Don't look at the Bad Plus. They're not even straight ahead jazz - they're doing avant garde and they have a following! I've been to multiple shows of theirs and they're always selling out - in ROCK venues! They got all sorts of people coming that don't even look like jazz listeners. Pink Martini, Squirrel Nut Zippers, Dirty Dozen Brass Band... they're jazzish as well.

I think it's pretty hard to pin down the state of jazz these days. Jazz festivals all over the world are still fairly popular, but those are also being "diluted" with non-jazz acts. The old jazz generation does have a conundrum that they could probably better connect with younger venues, but as with all things in history - everything is cyclical. I won't guess where jazz is in it's cycle - but considering that most forms of jazz have not become extinct - things are generally going to be good in terms of survivability. Many rock/pop forms have come and gone - disco, ska come to mind. Dixieland is still around. IMO, jazz is dead when people stop cramming in to see the band at Preservation Hall in NOLA. I don't think that scene is slowing down.

Esperanza Spalding is not a fluke - the girl has f'n mad chops and deserves that recognition. Yeah, there's plenty of garbage out there but I'm hopeful that people can still recognize good music when they hear it. As long as that is true, jazz will always remain alive, because the quality is there. As I've said before, jazz is very alive in Europe (same goes for the Blues).

As for who is the better player, jazz vs. non-jazz? I dunno. Again, another stupid dick waving contest. Jazz players certainly put a ton of time in their craft on average, but I'd say that guys like Jimmy Page, Buddy Guy, Brian May, SRV, Prince, Hendrix, (etc etc) did too. Heck, I remember hearing that Buddy Guy studied a little bit of Jim Hall's playing in an interview - inspired him to throw in a couple jazz chords here and there. Miles certainly did call SRV a mother****er (a compliment). And any bluesrock guitarist worth his salt knows that he owes his burning guitar solos to Charlie Christian who was pretty much the first to ever do it with an amplifier.

Dude I love that you have found your passion, and your last para about who cares who is the better player sums up one of the ideas I have been trying to get across.

I don't think jazz is dead. I was answering a question which is more about why it maybe has less mass appeal, but as you say...so what?

Don't especially think the Carter clip shows much. To my ear he's more or less doing what he does and some producers have made it work in a different context. Now if he plugged a precision into an ampeg and started pumping AC DC riffs or Chris Layton licks I'd be impressed. But I bet you wouldn't

Don't lose your passion.

P.S....most guys I know never actually LISTEN to Spalding......

 

[timobee4]

No I said that fruit bats dont like milk straight out of my old rosin holder. And when you play the head of Donna Lee unison with a sax at full speed you might understand. Keep practicing it does wonders! Cheers!

 

[topo morto]

No I said that fruit bats dont like milk straight out of my old rosin holder. And when you play the head of Donna Lee unison with a sax at full speed you might understand. Keep practicing it does wonders! Cheers!

Best Jazzbot ever!

 

[beggar98]

So you concede McCartney is a pro. You then assert that he can't play jazz. Why did you earlier suggest non-jazz styles were for amateurs?

I note that you also said earlier jazz was the only style requiring disciplined practice, yet haven't picked up on the relevance of Simandl.

You have also talked about the complexity of jazz without acknowledging that a lot of it is simple music that any hack can play. I think the example I raised with you was Darktown Strutter's Ball, but I can get my fake books and list a few hundred if necessary. (And I think when I checked your profile Dixieland was one of the styles you played?)

With respect, it seems your opinion is informed totally by your personal love of jazz without any regard for objective facts. Which of course is your prerogative, but it's a shame that you persist in belittling others for the heinous crime of having different tastes from you.

McCartney is somewhat irrelevant in this conversation when being compared to Treyser (no offense to Treyser). If we were comparing McCartney to, say, Ron Carter and asked who is more of a pro, I'd say Carter all day long. My reasoning is that I'm pretty sure Carter could hop on stage with any Beatles cover band and make his way through the songs, maybe even play them very well. Could Macca jump up with a jazz combo and walk over rhythm changes at 240bpm?

In my mind, the single greatest hallmark of a PRO musician is facility in many styles. The climate is such that a pro player needs to be able to accept gigs in rock, funk, soul, jazz, latin, etc. I think jazz players, just by the knowledge required to play that style well, are best suited to jump in to other styles with little/no rehearsal. If I was a band leader in a Top 40 cover band and my regular guitarist couldn't make the gig, I could feel comfortable hiring an accomplished rock player just as well as an accomplished jazz player. If I were leading a jazz group in the same situation, I could not hire the rock player.

 

[topo morto]

This whole pro/amateur thing is silly. The only hallmark of a pro musician is that they make their living doing music. Some pros do this in one style, others are able to mix it up a bit. Some pros rely on instrumental skills almost entirely, other have musical skills that are not instrumental, and others might have shapely bodies and a passable voice.

 

[beggar98]

This whole pro/amateur thing is silly. The only hallmark of a pro musician is that they make their living doing music. Some pros do this in one style, others are able to mix it up a bit. Some pros rely on instrumental skills almost entirely, other have musical skills that are not instrumental, and others might have shapely bodies and a passable voice.

I disagree strongly. If money is the only gauge of professionalism, then the bass player from Rancid is as much or more of a pro than Christian McBride. Success and professionalism are two very different things.