Double Bass Why isn't Jazz that popular? (DB forum thread)

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Has anyone else noticed the slow decline of jazz is matched by the slow, steady rise of bluegrass and celtic type stuff? Maybe it's just me, but i know of a few people who would seem to fit the profile of jazz musician going that route in their choice of instrument and style.

I love both of these and various other "world music" genres. I think their rise in popularity has to do with the fact that, like jazz and blues, they're a form of improvised (or semi-improvised) folk music from the oral tradition. I actually see the melding of these styles with jazz as the next logical step for jazz to take, and in a way for some of these other styles to take. I know some absolutely fantastic bluegrass musicians. While their skill sets are different from mine and the other "jazzers" I hang with, I don't think of them as lesser musicians at all in any way. Good musicians are good musicians.

Lot of truth in there! The steady rise of these hideous so called music styles are easy to explain. In order to understand and play jazz first you have to start young and be prepared to learn and practice hours of seemingly boring stuff for years. To play anything else you can pick up a bass and in 2 months you can sit in any bluegrass or whatever gig. Jazz is a complex language the rest is just fun dont require knowledge of scales, chords etc.

I strongly disagree. Other styles have different skill sets based on the focus of the music. In bluegrass, the focus is on a very specific time feel that bounces in a way that - like jazz swing feel - is nearly impossible to describe. I've gotten my *** kicked trying to produce this time feel in an authentic way many times in the past. While I doubt that Barry Bales could walk in and easily cover one of my gigs, I know the inverse is equally true if not moreso. Each style has a set of musical values that must be learned, and a feel that must be absorbed by osmosis, time and practice. Rather than closing our minds and pitting styles/genres against each other, we would all do better IMO to embrace the styles that are different and try to learn something from them.

Along these lines, in January I'll be playing here in town with saxophonist Jack Wilkins doing music from his Blue and Green project, which mixes various styles together. The band includes jazz musicians like Jack, Corey Christiansen, Danny Gottlieb, and Sara Caswell, all of whom are accomplished jazz players looking to stretch their boundaries. I can't wait!

 

[Eric Hochberg]

For example, is there a genius jazz bass player who has also been recognised as a groundbreaking rock player at the same level as say Entwhistle, McCartney, Jamerson, Lee, Squires, etc? At your level surely that is the comparison you have to make. I can't think of an example, though that may be my ignorance.

Your rock examples are from the old days of rock pop, and to break ground at that point was starting at a pretty low bar. Why would you expect there to be a jazz or rock player to do double duty in the groundbreaking department? Jaco comes to mind, as he changed the sound of the bass guitar and that sound has been used in both genres.

 

[pnchad]

why is everything in this society reduced to mindless competition? one genre is not better than another

but, many of these posts show a total lack of knowledge; I don't like it because......

even if you don't perfer or listen to or aspire to play jazz, as a musician you should be able to appreciate the better examples of the high art

not being able to understand it is EXACTLY what I am refering to as 'un-educated' - take the time, have an open mind, learn how to listen and all YOUR musical endeavors will profit from it

there are examples of jazz influence throughout popular music - usually the best quality popular music

 

[fingerbun]

Your rock examples are from the old days of rock pop, and to break ground at that point was starting at a pretty low bar. Why would you expect there to be a jazz or rock player to do double duty in the groundbreaking department? Jaco comes to mind, as he changed the sound of the bass guitar and that sound has been used in both genres.

I was responding to the notion that jazz players can sit straight into rock and do a superior job. I picked older examples because I thought they were less open to dispute, and they were also newer than most of the jazz examples.

I also picked old examples because I'm old

Jaco never played on a rock record as far as I know. The closest he came was Hejira. I agree his work strongly influenced 1980s fretless bass through guys like Pino Palladino but could he have done what Pino did in terms of creating those lines? I know he had the technique to play them.

I guess it's not a point I care to develop further. The topic of whether jazz is or is not the pinnacle of musical achievement is fairly emotional and a matter of taste. If I have made jazz players aware that many rock players will cringe at their smooth grooves in a rock setting, I've done my job. I agree with Treyzer that the best guys will be competent in a variety if styles.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

Jaco never played on a rock record as far as I know. The closest he came was Hejira. I agree his work strongly influenced 1980s fretless bass through guys like Pino Palladino but could he have done what Pino did in terms of creating those lines? I know he had the technique to play them.

He invented the fretless bass sound that many other players used (copied) in different genres. I have no doubt that Jaco would have sounded great on anything Pino played on. He was also about as funky as they come when that was called for.

 

[beggar98]

I think the answer to the original question is that, especially in America, the general public's taste for "art" has waned and been replaced by a taste for "entertainment". Consider the Invalid Link Removed movies of the year. None of these requires any thought on the part of the audience, it is all mindless entertainment. That is not a value judgment, I loved a few of those movies.

It isn't the fact that mindless entertainment is popular that bothers me, I think mindless is good a lot of times. What bothers me is that, for so many people, mindless entertainment is considered art. The desire to explore deeper and challenge oneself as a listener/viewer/reader as a path to self-improvement is dying. I think jazz is victim to this overall trend, as are so many other art forms- symphonies are going bankrupt, local art house cinemas can't compete with the multiplexes and their 3D screens, independent book stores are closing (even books themselves are in danger of becoming a thing of the past).

Jazz is more complicated and does require more effort, both of the musicians and, more importantly, of the audience. That audiences don't want to put this effort in to jazz is sad, especially for us jazz fans and musicians. That audiences don't want to put that effort into anything is sadder, and possibly devastating, for all of us.

 

[Jhengsman]

The problem witfh the art v entertaiment arguement is that when jazz was at its popular peak and musicians would make cameo apperances in movies jazz was the dance music of the young.

 

[fingerbun]

He invented the fretless bass sound that many other players used (copied) in different genres. I have no doubt that Jaco would have sounded great on anything Pino played on. He was also about as funky as they come when that was called for.

Used, copied and in many cases expanded upon. Pino's use of octaver, brighter sound and simpler riffing went beyond what Jaco did, though definitely building on it.

 

[The Lemon]

Is it because a lot of jazz is too sophisticated for normal people to listen to?

I think humans have had so much repetitive, predictable mainstream pop junk shoved down their throats for so long that they no longer 'get' Jazz. I've been told it "just sounds like a bunch of notes." Sad.

Haha maybe it's because you guys refer to people who don't like jazz as '(puny) humans' and 'normal people'.

Jazz was popular through the entire 20th century, up until the late 70's. Over the last 30 years the Jazz scene has made itself pretty insular, like this exclusive club for brainiac musicians that "normal people" aren't allowed in. Few people* are interested in making accessible Jazz music, and so the scene is now filled with snobs who look down their noses at the unwashed masses who don't 'get it'.

Meanwhile, with little accessible jazz being made, people who might actually be into it don't have very much 'entry level' stuff to get started with, and a whole scene full of elitists standing ready to belittle them. So, really, more people may be listening than you think, and they're just intimidated out of participating in the scene.

*Medeski Martin and Wood, Marcus Miller, and Bad Bad Not Good are some notable exceptions to this.

 

[beggar98]

The problem witfh the art v entertaiment arguement is that when jazz was at its popular peak and musicians would make cameo apperances in movies jazz was the dance music of the young.

When were Monk and Bird and Miles and Trane making cameo appearances in movies?

I think when considering the "Golden Age" of jazz, when it was the popular music of the land, it is very important to remember that the age of people with disposable income was much higher than it is now. Record labels today target 13-18 year old for a reason- they have money to spend and are easily manipulated. When jazz was at its peak it was primarily as a live music in bars and dance halls, where no children were allowed. Also, the technology to play recorded music in the home was expensive, not everyone had a record player. The advances in recorded music technology and the creation of a wealthy (by comparison) middle class lead to a new target audience for record companies: teenagers who were easily influenced by marketing.

 

[The Lemon]

What it should make you do is question who the hell is running the marketing departments for our favorite jazz labels. An international event, steadily growing in popularity, tailor-made for jazz fans and artists…that sound like something a jazz marketer might want to jump all over, maybe make sure his established artists are featured, make sure his up-and-coming artists are playing in-stores in front of fans and potential fans on what is becoming the single biggest day for independent music retailers of the entire year.

Just saying, the next time you hear someone bemoaning declining jazz sales, maybe remember Record Store Day and wonder how many other opportunities are they missing?

Also, a great point from beggar98's blog; that the other half of this equation has to do with Jazz labels being lazy, and not pursuing opportunities to gain new listeners. Great point, man.

 

[Jhengsman]

I was thinking 10 years before when Lionel Hampton, the Dorsey's , Goodman, etc were in the movies

 

[timobee4]

You hit the nail on the head. The rest is fun.

Should have added "fun for amateurs"!

 

[bassramos]

Originally posted by Topo Morto : "There isn't anything magical that jazz musicians are doing that is beyond comprehension of most musicians." There actually are somethings in Jazz that are beyond the comprehension of most musicians. It takes a while to develop a pallette to understand John Coltrane solos on live at Birdland or Mccoy Tyner and be able to wrap your brain around it. WHen I first heard Coltrane, I thought "Man this guys playing abunch of off notes and wrong stuff." Thats how it sounded at first. After some good study and the osmosis of the music repeatedly falling into my ears and my brain, it's as if something was unlocked and I can follow the intent of it and now digest it. I can see the forest and not just the trees, There is lots of GOOD music in the world. WHenever it is GOOD, thereis always something beyond the comprehension of people that dont listen to it regularly. There is a special set of ingredients needed to make each music work beautifully and authentically. THese special ingredients must be appreciated and attained in order to make your music passable. I cant be a Jazz musician and turn up my nose to rock and expect to go play a rock gig with no groove, understanding of space and no funk or smash in my pocket first. I will be looked at as a lame and scoffed at. I have to understand that I have some learning to do In each style I approach. I have to approach as a student. Most salsa grooves consist of a 2 note rhythm. It has to be done a certain way or else everyone knows for the best or the worst. Every musical situation that is GOOD requires your full effort on and off the stage. Jazz and Classical (Beethoven improvised) have the most highly developed HARMONIC improvisers to their credit. Not to say that all Jazz musicians are the best improvisers because they all are NOT in many a case. No one in the wesern world that I know of has matched Coltrane or Charlie Parker in the music world as far as Imporvisational virtuosity. There are amazing improvisers of rhythm and song and energy over the history of this earth and forget about Jazz for a second their stuff is definetely uncomprehensible to me and probably all of us in many ways. WHen people turn up their nose to _________ Music and say "oh it's too compicated and brainy, why bother, those ________ers think theyre better than us "Laypeople.""they limit themselves and are putting a fence around themselves and cant get out until they get rid of that fence thinking.

 

[topo morto]

There isn't anything magical that jazz musicians are doing that is beyond comprehension of most musicians." There actually are somethings in Jazz that are beyond the comprehension of most musicians. It takes a while to develop a pallette to understand John Coltrane solos on live at Birdland or Mccoy Tyner and be able to wrap your brain around it. WHen I first heard Coltrane, I thought "Man this guys playing abunch of off notes and wrong stuff." Thats how it sounded at first. After some good study and the osmosis of the music repeatedly falling into my ears and my brain, it's as if something was unlocked and I can follow the intent of it and now digest it. I can see the forest and not just the trees

I'm not saying that there's nothing to learn to get good at Jazz - I'm saying...

There is lots of GOOD music in the world. WHenever it is GOOD, thereis always something beyond the comprehension of people that dont listen to it regularly. There is a special set of ingredients needed to make each music work beautifully and authentically. THese special ingredients must be appreciated and attained in order to make your music passable.

...exactly what you just said there


(except that 'beyond comprehension' is a bit stronger than 'it takes a bit of time to learn')

 

[fingerbun]

Should have added "fun for amateurs"!

You or McCartney. Who is the more professional?

It's not a discussion if you keep lobbing insults unsupported by facts.

 

[topo morto]

It's not talkbass if you keep lobbing facts unsupported by insults, either!

 

[timobee4]

You or McCartney. Who is the more professional?

It's not a discussion if you keep lobbing insults unsupported by facts.

Undoubtedly McCartney! Nevertheless I wouldn't swap my chops with him for a split second!! Sam Jones for sure or Mingus or Chambers! McCartney? Don't be ridiculous, like Clapton (God) he couldn't swing to save his life! Nice guy though with a sweet voice! He pays for the mass population. KTfunk put it nicely when he said "Jazz is a higher form of art. It's not meant to appeal to the masses."
One thing for sure jazz cats are great educators and it is up to the student to decide where to stop, unfortunately most bass players today don't even feel the need to educate themselves. When I see some of the DB players of other styles you can tell straight up if they jazz cats trying to make a living lending their skills or some music enthusiast, just look at the contorted fingers in any case various amount of respect to anyone who can be bothered putting time in any instrument whether its for personal growth or just to hop on stage to enjoy the appreciation of the audience.

 

[DeathFromBelow]

Considering all the eliteism in todays jazz-scene, I find it quite ironic that jazz was banned in the Third Reich.

Some of you guys would make some pretty good party-members...

 

[timobee4]

"but could he have done what Pino did in terms of creating those lines?"


If Pino was checking this thread he would be embarrassed reading his name associated with these valuable comments. Can not even mention Jaco and Pino in the same book when it comes to creating bass lines however sexy Pinos lines are! Last week I gave up on telling my son the difference between barn and cage eggs just couldn't get it!