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Double Bass Why isn't Jazz that popular? (DB forum thread)
- Thread starter gai113
- Start date
Our love is alive
And so it begins
Foolishly laying our hearts on the table
Stumblin' in
Hadn't thought about ol' Suzi in years. Thanks for the reminder!
I can see where we differ. I absolutely love hearing carefully honed talent express itself thru a musical instrument. If the ideas in a lengthy solo get repetitive, that's the fault of the soloist, not of jazz. When I want to hear 4 or 5 minute tunes featuring a vocalist and musicians that must work around their lyrics, I turn to rock and pop.
I never could learn to love big bands, even tho I've played in a couple for long stints- it paid well, believe it or not. All three big bands I've been part of used music (rather than charts) even for bass and piano and I was expected to adhere to them. For that reason, I disliked big band even more than orchestral work, because at least in an orchestra I was hanging out with with other bassists while regurgitating someone else's note for note ideas.
I like orchestral music fine when it's accompanied by something visual to flesh it out. OTOH, I love to listen to drum corps material in my car. I'm weird like that.
Well, my folks (who are not musicians, tho Mom took piano lessons for a few years in the 90s) had the greatest little album collection on Earth for people who are not players. Ahmad Jamal, Hank Crawford, Ray Charles' sextet featuring Fathead Newman, Bill Pursell, Lou Rawls, Dionne Warwick's Burt songs, Lou Donaldson, Nancy Wilson, Aretha Franklin (she made her name in R&B but she is still a great; her version of God Bless The Child IMO blows Billie's off the stage in terms of instrumental arrangement), Erroll Garner, Earl Grant, Harry Belafonte, and a bunch more stuff in that vein. It wasn't all jazz or the greatest jazz --no Miles, no Trane, etc-- but it's what got me started. I'm a 1963 baby, so the stuff I listed was almost popular at the time. I spent the 70s and 80s ignoring most of it for rock, but I started playing electric bass in 1990 and got into jazz in the mid-90s because I had gotten hold of a double and my teacher was a jazz and classical guy. After the umpteenth time reading a new chart and realizing that I'd heard this tune at least once a week from about age 3-8, I finally went to my folks' house and raided their vinyl. Recorded a lot of it for myself and haven't looked back since.
A couple of points regarding things said over the last few pages:
Buble, Cullum, Krall, Jones, Spalding- All jazz musicians. If it "doesn't sound like jazz" to you, then you need to do some homework on the history of the music.
As to Esperanza specifically, she is an excellent bass player. Her records as a leader may feature her vocals more prominently, but check out her playing on Joe Lovano's US Five records (no singing on those). She can absolutely hang with some heavyweights just on the strength of her bass skills.
Buble, Cullum, Krall, Jones, Spalding- All jazz musicians. If it "doesn't sound like jazz" to you, then you need to do some homework on the history of the music.
As to Esperanza specifically, she is an excellent bass player. Her records as a leader may feature her vocals more prominently, but check out her playing on Joe Lovano's US Five records (no singing on those). She can absolutely hang with some heavyweights just on the strength of her bass skills.
Michael Bublé - "Everything" Official Music Video - YouTube
How is this jazz at all? ^
Heres some modern vocal jazz
Kurt Elling sings Norwegian Wood live - YouTube
Heres instrumental
The Eternal Triangle - Pat Metheny, Roy Hargrove and others - YouTube
To me buble is certainly not jazz.
How is this jazz at all? ^
Heres some modern vocal jazz
Kurt Elling sings Norwegian Wood live - YouTube
Heres instrumental
The Eternal Triangle - Pat Metheny, Roy Hargrove and others - YouTube
To me buble is certainly not jazz.
I heard a clip the other day of Ella singing "Sunshine of Your Love" by Cream. Does that mean she isn't jazz anymore? Wynton and Jarrett have both released records of classical music, so they must not be jazz anymore either.
If you search "michael buble" on youtube you will find hundreds of videos of him performing standards in very much the same style as they were originally performed. It might be terrible, but it's definitely jazz.
beggar98 said:
The difference is that Keith and Ella are some of the best jazz musicians to ever live. Wynton is one if the leading trumpeters of today.
Michael buble is a pop singer who decided to be "jazzy".
Considering that Keith can do a classical album and he's still a jazz pianist, than buble can do a (bad) jazz album and still be a pop singer...
Wikipedia describes him as a jazz singer! Discussion over! LOL
On a more serious note...jazz evolves. Could the first dixie guys have imagined Return To Forever? The best players break the rules to find something new that works, in my opinion. Someone whose musical goal is to play just like Ray Brown may move towards being a great technician, but artistically I'd see them the same way as a really good tribute band.
For example I like the way Jacques Loussier reinterprets classical compositions - it's genuinely new and pleasing to my ear. I'm going to stick my neck and assume noone here would argue he's really classical. But bottom line is I like the ambience his music creates. If you want to call it country or rap I'll still like the sound.
Buble and Jones are interesting examples because they sit on a border between styles. I'd say some of Buble's stuff is jazz but not all.
Invalid Link Removed
michael buble-sway - YouTube
I'd say Jones' first album is a fusion of jazz, blues and country. For example, her selection of piano notes on "Cold Cold Heart" while very simple, is to my ear sonically exquisite and very jazz.
Norah Jones New Orleans - Cold Cold Heart - YouTube
Krall, who most seem to regard as jazz, has been known to put out the odd pop tune.
Sorry Seems to Be the Hardest Word: Elton John & Diana Krall - YouTube
And while totally irrelevant, from the same show, the track where I discovered Christian McBride.
Night Train: Diana Krall - YouTube
Other peoples' definitions of jazz, even when I disagree with them, are interesting to me. That's why I'm participating in this thread.
fingerbun said:Wikipedia describes him as a jazz singer! Discussion over! LOL
On a more serious note...jazz evolves. Could the first dixie guys have imagined Return To Forever? The best players break the rules to find something new that works, in my opinion. Someone whose musical goal is to play just like Ray Brown may move towards being a great technician, but artistically I'd see them the same way as a really good tribute band.
For example I like the way Jacques Loussier reinterprets classical compositions - it's genuinely new and pleasing to my ear. I'm going to stick my neck and assume noone here would argue he's really classical. But bottom line is I like the ambience his music creates. If you want to call it country or rap I'll still like the sound.
Buble and Jones are interesting examples because they sit on a border between styles. I'd say some of Buble's stuff is jazz but not all.
Invalid Link Removed
michael buble-sway - YouTube
I'd say Jones' first album is a fusion of jazz, blues and country. For example, her selection of piano notes on "Cold Cold Heart" while very simple, is to my ear sonically exquisite and very jazz.
Norah Jones New Orleans - Cold Cold Heart - YouTube
Krall, who most seem to regard as jazz, has been known to put out the odd pop tune.
Sorry Seems to Be the Hardest Word: Elton John & Diana Krall - YouTube
And while totally irrelevant, from the same show, the track where I discovered Christian McBride.
Night Train: Diana Krall - YouTube
Other peoples' definitions of jazz, even when I disagree with them, are interesting to me. That's why I'm participating in this thread.
Yeah but buble literally does not contribute anything to jazz.
I also think that people need players to emulate like ray brown but after a certain point it's impossible to not sound like yourself since everyone brings a certain element to the music. Look at mcbride, he took years of lessons from ray and you can tell, but he is still his own player.
While you're categorizing, anyone want to help me organise my CD's?
I have the albums by the following that are under 'Jazz':
Bobby Hutcherson
Dave Holland Quintet
Duke Ellington
Egberto Gismonti
Erik Truffaz
Gary Peacock
Jaco Pastorius
Jan Garbarek
John Scofield
Louis Sclavis
Marc Johnson
Medeski Martin and Wood
Miles Davis
Miroslav Vitous
National Health
Pat Metheny
Paul Motian
Stefano Battaglia
Taxi Driver - original score
Thelonious Monk
Tomasz Stanko
Wayne Shorter
Weather Report
Wynton Marsalis
Should I move any?
I have the albums by the following that are under 'Jazz':
Bobby Hutcherson
Dave Holland Quintet
Duke Ellington
Egberto Gismonti
Erik Truffaz
Gary Peacock
Jaco Pastorius
Jan Garbarek
John Scofield
Louis Sclavis
Marc Johnson
Medeski Martin and Wood
Miles Davis
Miroslav Vitous
National Health
Pat Metheny
Paul Motian
Stefano Battaglia
Taxi Driver - original score
Thelonious Monk
Tomasz Stanko
Wayne Shorter
Weather Report
Wynton Marsalis
Should I move any?
Possibly true, not qualified to comment.
I know some of my jazz mad horn-playing friends love to play his charts, but dunno how original they are, or who actually did them.
Not everyone who plays jazz has to be a jazz great.
If Buble is so controversial, imagine if I had mentioned Harry Connick Jr
Probably miles and monk
My fave Miles album is Sketches of Spain... I sometimes wonder if it should go under 'world'!
- Sep 4, 2010
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For me, the point and core of jazz is improvising, which includes but is not limited to playing a solo over changes, free form music, or re-shaping a known theme to one's own invention. Makes it pretty simple who's a jazz artist and who's not-no need to mention names.
You have to define 'contribute'. Let's assume the strictest definition, which is something to the effect of 'add value to'.
If one is defined by one's contribution, then few would be classed as anything because most people tend to learn whatever skill/information they need and then just use it, without 'contributing' anything further to their field of endeavour. For example, I have a maths degree (statistics major). I added nothing to the statistics world. But I consider myself to be a statistician because that is what I was trained to do and this is what I love doing.
Similarly, few people 'contribute' anything to jazz other than the time they spend learning it and performing it in front of others. This is one of the problems with jazz. Does that mean they're not jazz artists? An artist such as Buble grew up listening to jazz, cut his teeth doing jazz covers, and gained his fame doing jazz covers. He's a jazz performer. Who are we to question his artistic intentions or contributions to jazz as a genre? If anything, I'd argue that people like Michael Buble expose the general public to jazz which can then lead some people to dig further into the genre. A Michael Buble contributes as much to jazz (by way of exposing jazz to people who wouldn't otherwise bother listening to it) as a 'real' jazz musician playing in a small club to the same people week-in-week-out.
People rush to put labels on things (e.g. that's jazz, that's not jazz). Why the need for the subjective labels?
If one is defined by one's contribution, then few would be classed as anything because most people tend to learn whatever skill/information they need and then just use it, without 'contributing' anything further to their field of endeavour. For example, I have a maths degree (statistics major). I added nothing to the statistics world. But I consider myself to be a statistician because that is what I was trained to do and this is what I love doing.
Similarly, few people 'contribute' anything to jazz other than the time they spend learning it and performing it in front of others. This is one of the problems with jazz. Does that mean they're not jazz artists? An artist such as Buble grew up listening to jazz, cut his teeth doing jazz covers, and gained his fame doing jazz covers. He's a jazz performer. Who are we to question his artistic intentions or contributions to jazz as a genre? If anything, I'd argue that people like Michael Buble expose the general public to jazz which can then lead some people to dig further into the genre. A Michael Buble contributes as much to jazz (by way of exposing jazz to people who wouldn't otherwise bother listening to it) as a 'real' jazz musician playing in a small club to the same people week-in-week-out.
People rush to put labels on things (e.g. that's jazz, that's not jazz). Why the need for the subjective labels?
I think you are nailing the point. I think there's a lot here who would agree with you, and probably many would add some criteria on technical proficiency.
My view is different. Improvisations occurs in many musical genres, and has for centuries. And to me something like big band jazz is very tightly scripted - but that's just the mechanics of the performance.
I guarantee if you looked at a score from Buble's band it would look pretty similar to the scores Tony Bennet and Sinatra were using back in the day. It is definitely jazz.
Possibly true, not qualified to comment.
I know some of my jazz mad horn-playing friends love to play his charts, but dunno how original they are, or who actually did them.
Not everyone who plays jazz has to be a jazz great.
If Buble is so controversial, imagine if I had mentioned Harry Connick Jr
Connick can play. I can't pull it up at work, but there's a youtube clip of him on stage at the New Orleans Jazzfest playing piano when he was, like, 6 years old. He went in a more pop direction as he got older, but the roots are real.
Connick learned piano from the likes of James Booker and other New Orleans greats. Guy can play alright.
