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Why note this time signature?

#41
PennyroyalWe said:
I've never understood why 12/8 is a thing. I've never heard a song in 12/8 that didn't just sound like it's in 6 to me.
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It has a certain analogy with 4/4 over 2/4, insofar as the first and third beats are stronger than 2 and 4, with 1 being a little stronger still. In 6/8 the implied default pulse of each alternating bar, without further direction, is equal:
upload_2023-9-14_6-23-36.png


In many cases. 12/8 fits the meter and shape of the melody or words better than 6/8.
 
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#42
themickster said:
A band I was in did a song that was written up with every other bar in 4/4 and 6/4. Every bar had a time signature. There was no need for the 6/4 bars, and we always fell into 4/4 throughout.
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'The Logical Song' by Supertramp has a similar scheme that could be written
|4/4 |2/4 |4/4 |4/4 |2/4 |4/4 |4/4 |2/4 |4/4 |4/4 |2/4 |4/4 |4/4 |
or
|6/4 |4/4 |6/4 |4/4 |6/4 |4/4 |6/4 |4/4 |4/4 |

It could be written as 11 measures of 4/4 but that makes less sense because the syncopation would not reflect the melodic and lyrical meter.
 
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#43
You can say the same about 12/8.... It has to due with the fundamental pulse of the music. Also makes sense when you are writing/playing music with multiple meter changes; particularly between 6/8 - 7/8 and the pulse is heavy on the 8th note. Listen to "Natural Science" by Rush.... The second theme is very heavy on the 8th note and goes through multiple time signature changes. I've never seen it notated, but I have no doubt 8/8 would be appropriate there in place of 4/4.
 
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#45
Beej said:
This thread is an excellent example of why I love TB. Getting down into the weeds always produces learning for me. :thumbsup:
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Some of these threads can drag you too deep into the weeds, too. Some people really go nuts with the theory and make it tough to comprehend for the irrelevant stuff they toss in. This one started out that way but didn't really go that way, which is a good thing.
 
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#46
TexasEdition said:
You can say the same about 12/8.... It has to due with the fundamental pulse of the music. Also makes sense when you are writing/playing music with multiple meter changes; particularly between 6/8 - 7/8 and the pulse is heavy on the 8th note. Listen to "Natural Science" by Rush.... The second theme is very heavy on the 8th note and goes through multiple time signature changes. I've never seen it notated, but I have no doubt 8/8 would be appropriate there in place of 4/4.
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Hand me a sheet of music that has 8/8 on it and I'll look at you like you came from Mars, and then I'm going to think you want a bar twice as long as a 4/4 bar.
 
#47
JimmyM said:
Hand me a sheet of music that has 8/8 on it and I'll look at you like you came from Mars, and then I'm going to think you want a bar twice as long as a 4/4 bar.
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If you had a bar full of 8th notes, why would 8/8 be any longer than 4/4? The lower numeral indicates the note value that the signature is counting, which dictates the "pulse" and has a profound impact on how the music should be played. These are not fractions; no need to reduce to the lowest common denominator. If that's the case, why not just write all simple meter music in 2/2?
 
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#48
TexasEdition said:
If you had a bar full of 8th notes, why would 8/8 be any longer than 4/4? The lower numeral indicates the note value that the signature is counting, which dictates the "pulse" and has a profound impact on how the music should be played. These are not fractions; no need to reduce to the lowest common denominator. If that's the case, why not just write all simple meter music in 2/2?
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It's a waste of time to do it when 4/4 works just as well and won't raise questions. Part of it is convention, sure, but those conventions emerged for a reason.

I don't like to read music that the composer tries to get all arty with the simple things. Get arty with the music itself, not time sigs.
 
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#55
Jeff Bonny said:
Studying konnakol makes it obvious that while there can be several ways to break down a phrase rhythmically there's usually one way that makes the most sense. If you're handing a page of music to someone using the notation that makes the most sense makes the most sense.
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That's what I'm saying. I never saw music written in 8/8 ever and I've read a whole lot of music. Keep it simple, neat, and don't try to reinvent the wheel.
 
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#57
I think it's important to remember that the whole point of notating music is primarily so other musicians have a way of performing a piece such that it meets the composer's expectations.

And so sometimes what is written on the page is there not because it necessarily is a requirement in order to produce that ideal performance...rather, it's there because it will produce the desired results more quickly/efficiently.

So, hypothetically there might be a reason why a composer/arranger would notate a passage in 8/8. But unless that reason is overtly expressed in the notation, then nearly any musician with even a modicum of sight-reading experience would prefer to read the passage in 4/4, simply because they're more familiar with that and thus they don't have to ask (potentially unnecessary) questions.
 
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#58
pmatz2 said:
I found this article helpful in understanding the concept

musictheory.net
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It would seem that 8/8 has eight eighths, whilst 4/4 has eight eighths. The former has them grouped in two threes and a two; the latter has four twos. The difference I see is you count one as oneand a two and a one two. The other you count as one and two and three and four and. Maybe it makes sense at a deeper level of theory than mine.
 
#59
themickster said:
It would seem that 8/8 has eight eighths, whilst 4/4 has eight eighths. The former has them grouped in two threes and a two;
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Rather like 7/8 and most other irregular signatures, there is no established convention for grouping in 8/8 - you can pretty much do what you want to convey your intent. 3-3-2 is just one possibility. The usual approach is to conform to the 'shape' (tension and resolution) in the melody, what ever that might be, case by case.
 

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