Why the bass community is hurting itself.

[Jazz Ad]

I think OP is wrong in his reasoning.
What really happens is that in the current market people have desires that far exceed what they can afford.
You get people buying new then having to part with their goods, losing a lot of money in the sale because potetnial buyers don't have money either.
As long as people will want things that are over what they can afford, it will continue.

 

[mbelue]

While I agree wholeheartedly about the price of pop culture booze, I still disagree on value.
The used market prior to the internet may have been higher it was based off ignorance and volatility.
Honesty in value to me is key, and determined by closest substitute. Thanks to the internet we can all research this. This is great in my opinion, even if we lose out on those pawn shop rescues that used to be underpriced due to ignorance.
Today overpaying for anything is a result of laziness.
As to your point about a manufacturers interest in the used value of their creation... I'm sure they are far more concerned about the value of their new instruments which actually make them money.
I wish you all the luck in the world with your sales.

 

[nostatic]

This is not a Sadowsky vs. SX debate. There is great value in a Sadowsky. What price someone pays is market driven, but its "value" everyone concedes is good or great.

.

Actually I think you have it backwards (or sideways). Plenty here say the value of a Sadowsky (or Fodera) is not good or great. They will instead conflate price and value, often inversely. I agree that we have many who know the price of everything and the value of nothing. But your Alembic example and follow-on comments don't necessarily speak to that but drift into an idea of "inherent value" - which is IMHO a flawed concept. There is no universal metric for value - it is determined by the individual. My Fodera YYD is a great value to me, is a complete waste of money to others. The price is a constant, the value is not.

 

[TRichardsbass]

I like Hello Music. A lot. I bought a 60th anniversary Pbass there for $350 dollars less than every other on-line retailer. I called all of them for a price match, too. And they wouldn't do it. If I were to sell that bass today, I'd probably lose, at most, $250 on my purchase price. Compare that to losing $600 if I bought it from Musician's Friend or Sweetwater. That's a ton of money!

Hello Music has better return policies than most retialers, better warranties, and prices on new gear the major cutthroat dealers won't touch. Why would anyone even think of boycotting them!

Because in a short time it will delete and destroy your brand and market, and the company/builder is then on the slippery slope. Most of the guys on Hello are the big boys with inventory they have to move. Fender's IPO was killed because GC had a huge amount of inventory but Fender was still owed quite a bit on it. So Fender goes and sells the poorly planned increased production on Hello Music, like your 60th anniversary bass. How many of those 60th anniversary basses do you think Sweeetwater or Musician's Friend are going to be able to sell at the current price? A lot less then before the Hello Music offering. And when they eventually dump them, well....

If you are building a brand, and you have many offerings in the future, a once or twice Hello Music offering will help get your name out there. Although I haven't checked in with the guys from Avian. Remind me to visit them at NAMM and ask. My first or second model going for a discount when I'm launching a whole new model or line can make sense.

But when you take special items, like the 60th Anniversary model, and then discount it, you have completely devalued it, and also a lot of your brand. I mean, if the special, limited, US made one is selling for cheap, then it makes the consumer question the regular US made one which is more.

Pricing is something that all of us in the industry struggle with every day. Don't want to price too high for the consumer, don't want to price to low to dilute the value of the brand. I have discussions with several people everytime we discuss a new bass model to invest design $$$ in. You have to be careful to maintain your brand value and protect your US or custom market and not enter with something that kills both.

So, its not really about boycotting, its more of a marketing and sales strategy. Many companies don't sell to big box, and won't do Hello or other deal of the day companies in order to protect their entire supply and sale chain.

The funny thing is that with the new disposable society, the sales and marketing plans go about as long as a week. Video games. New version for XMas, one or two production runs, done. People will pay as much for some games and quckly obsolete gaming systems as you would for a US Fender, but will complain about the cost of the Fender. The Fender will not be obsolete tomorrow, and it is a real tangible asset. That XBox 360 you bought your kid last year? Might not even be usable in another three months. But you won't cry about the fact it cost you $300 or more new. But you will complain because a MIM Fender is $900 bucks, or that a Sadowsky costs $2200. That Sadowsky will be around when your kids are grandparents, and it will probably still have a decent resale value then, maybe be actually high as it will be super vintage.

Does that add anything to understanding why I ranted today?

 

[smeet]

This is it. Unless you want to ditch Capitalism...it is what it is.

That's the crux of the matter. We live in a Capitalist system, and this is how it works. Outsourcing, downsizing, income inequality, being automated out of a job which you need in order to participate in said system... These are all logical eventual outcomes of the system as it is set up.

 

[Unrepresented]

Because in a short time it will delete and destroy your brand and market, and the company/builder is then on the slippery slope. Most of the guys on Hello are the big boys with inventory they have to move. Fender's IPO was killed because GC had a huge amount of inventory but Fender was still owed quite a bit on it. So Fender goes and sells the poorly planned increased production on Hello Music, like your 60th anniversary bass. How many of those 60th anniversary basses do you think Sweeetwater or Musician's Friend are going to be able to sell at the current price? A lot less then before the Hello Music offering. And when they eventually dump them, well....

If you are building a brand, and you have many offerings in the future, a once or twice Hello Music offering will help get your name out there. Although I haven't checked in with the guys from Avian. Remind me to visit them at NAMM and ask. My first or second model going for a discount when I'm launching a whole new model or line can make sense.

But when you take special items, like the 60th Anniversary model, and then discount it, you have completely devalued it, and also a lot of your brand. I mean, if the special, limited, US made one is selling for cheap, then it makes the consumer question the regular US made one which is more.

Pricing is something that all of us in the industry struggle with every day. Don't want to price too high for the consumer, don't want to price to low to dilute the value of the brand. I have discussions with several people everytime we discuss a new bass model to invest design $$$ in. You have to be careful to maintain your brand value and protect your US or custom market and not enter with something that kills both.

So, its not really about boycotting, its more of a marketing and sales strategy. Many companies don't sell to big box, and won't do Hello or other deal of the day companies in order to protect their entire supply and sale chain.

The funny thing is that with the new disposable society, the sales and marketing plans go about as long as a week. Video games. New version for XMas, one or two production runs, done. People will pay as much for some games and quckly obsolete gaming systems as you would for a US Fender, but will complain about the cost of the Fender. The Fender will not be obsolete tomorrow, and it is a real tangible asset. That XBox 360 you bought your kid last year? Might not even be usable in another three months. But you won't cry about the fact it cost you $300 or more new. But you will complain because a MIM Fender is $900 bucks, or that a Sadowsky costs $2200. That Sadowsky will be around when your kids are grandparents, and it will probably still have a decent resale value then, maybe be actually high as it will be super vintage.

Does that add anything to understanding why I ranted today?

Artificial profit margins being held by retailers/manufacturers don't mean that there's value there.

 

[TRichardsbass]

Hey guys, I gotta go, have a rehearsal for a gig. Please keep posting so I can read more ideas later.

 

[nostatic]

Because in a short time it will delete and destroy your brand and market, and the company/builder is then on the slippery slope.

Does that add anything to understanding why I ranted today?

This is a very different point than your Alembic example. Dealer relationships and distribution are not the same as a private party used sale.

I don't buy from low-ball dealers for the reasons you articulate. And in fact, these days I pay a lot of money to buy a few select pieces of gear from small builders/companies. Not only because I find better quality and value in the product, but because I want to support those people. I'm an outlier though.

 

[M.R. Ogle]

Both sellers and buyers act in their own self interest. The intersection of interests in opposition define "value" or "market price".

Yeah, pretty much this. And both the buyers and sellers interests are influenced by external economic factors.

 

[BawanaRik]

When I sold my Alembic I has it listed at a giveaway price. I ended up getting 200 bucks less.

I recognize that this is the market. I also recognize lick a hard kick in the shins that this isn't a good time to go into the sell mode. Which is what I'm doing.

But let me tell you a story about a friend of mine. Needed to sell his condo that he paid 75K for. I explained the market and units in his condoworld were going for 150K of less.

He listed his condo at 250K. It didn't sell, it got foreclosed and he has the IRS, the bank, etc etc after his self. He's figured a way to escape since he has terminal brain cancer and he won't have to worry about any of it.

His wife will.

What I've noticed about this market is that an Alembic for give away money will sit longer than a Squire for not give away money.

If you're looking for a high end bass I strongly suggest shopping for it now.

 

[Ewo]

Market determines cost. Individuals determine value. There is no "true value." And if Guild Pilots are dirt cheap, then you, as someone who values them, should be happy because you can buy more of them. But if you're selling, then you're sad - but if you're selling then perhaps the value to you is less "true" than you think.

The free market, in a nutshell.

Got two small things to add, related to that.

One is that in an honest transaction in a free market (i.e., no coercion, no deception) value is actually created. Both parties engage in the transaction because they feel they are better off having the other party's goods/services/money that what they already possess or have to offer in exchange. (I just picked up a Skyline JO5 with an Audere pre at a good price. I had less jingle than the asking price, but was interested in that bass. The seller wanted the cash to by a different bass. We thus both perceived the transaction as beneficial.)

The second is that even if e-commerce has put pressure on bricks-and-mortar retailing, it's also reduced the likelihood of information asymmetry, which has long been recognized as a potential problem in that value-creation dynamic, above. Getting "ripped off" can only happen when one party is unaware of the price (as a proxy for value) set in previous transactions for the same goods/services/money. IOW, the harm is offset by the benefit, at the market level.

 

[IngerAlb]

My attention dissipated after reading that "made in USA" praise

The one thing that I've learned about fair pricing items is this: it all comes down to how desperate you are to sell and how many ppl are interested in it. You might not like it, but the buyer dictates the price - especially with this hurting economy. You may think a certain number is a fair price - and it might very well be - but if nobody is willing to shell out that much cash, then the price is not right. Accept the reality, or keep the item and hope for better days - if you can afford to wait.

 

[mbelue]

You are now comparing new and nearly retail pricing to used.
Now you doing like a retailer complaining about the internet. As a retailer you are not one of "us." Your original rant is invalid.

 

[One Drop]

I'll take the current situation over the one when I started to play in the late '70's.

If you were not a pro working in circles where you got to meet lots if fellow musos, info was scarce and unreliable, buying and selling was mostly limited to your local market, and dealers were able to scam like there was no tomorrow. If you wanted something rare you might get it for next to nothing or top dollar, prices were all over the place.

Now you can make an informed choice, and buy and sell to and from the whole world.

 

[rimbaud]

Again, not agree at all with my fellow frenchman Jazz Ad and I totally agree with you OP.

It has always been like that: you buy new, you lost money when you sell. Argus about cars, instruments, antique furniture were everywhere or you could ask an expert to give you a fair price.

What happens now ? internet brings a dichotomy between desires and needs, between what things really cost in terms of: how has it been built ? where did you get it , internet or local dealer ? all is mistaken, that's why you've got so much guys asking so tiny prices for everything "cos' you know I saw the same cheaper on another website, or there, or there" everyone tend to be his own "Argus", everyone thinks he is his "own expert", just to satisfy desires, not needs.

That's why I think that internet is really a nonsense nowadays for bass or musical instruments related market: you cant find what you want in a physical shop, you ask mister Google, mister Google gives you the best price for a new item, and then the guy that was selling basses next door loose his job....

I wanted my local dealer to get the cab I needed, he couldn't. I was ready to pay 40 or 50 more bucks to have it sold by him!! because I thought it was the right price for EVERYONE to make this market still .... fair !

If you buy something new you know you'll loose something, of course Jazz Ad, but it's not internet era , it has always been like that

When you search for something, you have to be reasonable: when you were buying a used car @ the local used cars dealer, there was an argus right ? there was a fair price for this or that, that must be the same for other items. If you don't think the price is low enough for you, good bye, but don't disturb the person trying to sell at what he thinks is "a fair price".

Seriously, if someone thinks that it's not "normal to buy Chinese or Korean" because of workers' rights, how they kill trees resources, and then ask an unreasonable price for something, do you think it's fair? I live with 450 €/month, sometimes a 50 bucks gig come in my wallet, cool.... I'm ok with that, when I want something I:
- stop smoking
- stop squanding
- I walk instead of driving for short trips
... And then I can buy something @ a fair price.

When people will be aware about how we squand resources, maybe they will stop asking for cheapies.....

 

[M.R. Ogle]

What I've noticed about this market is that an Alembic for give away money will sit longer than a Squire for not give away money.

Interesting observation. I guess that the Squier sits at a dollar level where a MUCH greater percentage of the buying market can compete. More potential buyers = more likely sale.

The Alembic, even though it is an object of desire to many, sits at a price point that STILL disqualifies a big chunk of the buyers in the market. It's like if somebody offered you a Ferrari for 50K cash today... yeah, it's a great price, but it has to wait for a guy who has 50 grand in cash to spare.

And, I still marvel at the effect of the internet (Let's face it, we're primarily talking about eBay) on buying and selling instruments. Some complain about the fees, but if you have something to sell, the 'Bay enables you to offer it to the entire WORLD, 24 hours a day... if theres a buyer for your item anywhere in the world, you have a MUCH better chance of finding them now. Try purchasing a three-line ad in every "recycler" paper in the US and see if it compares favorably with an eBay listing fee.
And the "Completed listings" give me a real-time barometer for pricing anything I want to sell. Combined with all the free information to make buyers and sellers more informed, I think it's been a real stabilizing factor in the buying and selling of instruments. The highs and lows are gone, but the "value" is definitively established daily.

 

[kesslari]

TR - I think this is less about "the bass community" or even online purchasing, and more about a recession economy.

It's a fairly safe assumption, whether in basses or real estate, that if someone is selling something, they need to move it and need money. That's not always true - it's not true in your case.

But if they need money badly enough, and the something doesn't sell, they will drop the price (or sell something else).

If they "need to sell" more than I "need to buy" I can easily wait for their price to drop. Typically in a recession that is true - they "need to sell" more than I "need to buy".

In a "booming economy" that's often reversed - there are more folks running around with money and willing to pay higher prices, and as a buyer, I risk losing out on an item I want if I don't buy it quickly at asking price or thereabouts.

The other factor is "current desirablity". I like Genz Benz amps. At the moment, Shuttlemax 9.2's sell on TB within a few hours of posting. Shuttle 6's (older, less currently "hot") take a while. Even Streamliners, which were last year's "hot hot hot" amps, take a while to sell, and prices have dropped - not because of anything inherent in the bass community, but because of their availability on the market vs. their demand.

 

[BawanaRik]

Buzz words don't solve problems. It's very expensive to ship good to the US from foreign ports.

Income inequality? Everyone in the US is living pretty good. Three hots and a cot. Talk to your Grandparents about how life was a few years back. Income inequality seems trivial when you can't get water or food for you family. And for many people on the planet that's a daily struggle.

That's the crux of the matter. We live in a Capitalist system, and this is how it works. Outsourcing, downsizing, income inequality, being automated out of a job which you need in order to participate in said system... These are all logical eventual outcomes of the system as it is set up.

 

[budman]

Is this discussion about used vs. used or used vs. new?

Regardless, from where I sit it looks like a flooded market. Gear is everywhere and there's not a lot of profit to be made.

 

[BawanaRik]

Look at how fast and what price a FEA dual optical comp goes for. Or anything Fuzzroious. Then Look at the Alembics.

I think this is more complex than just people blowing out stuff because they need money. There's a killer market for some stuff and other stuff is givaway bait.

I find this interesting and would like to understand it. More than i do.

TR - I think this is less about "the bass community" or even online purchasing, and more about a recession economy.

It's a fairly safe assumption, whether in basses or real estate, that if someone is selling something, they need to move it and need money. That's not always true - it's not true in your case.

But if they need money badly enough, and the something doesn't sell, they will drop the price (or sell something else).

If they "need to sell" more than I "need to buy" I can easily wait for their price to drop. Typically in a recession that is true - they "need to sell" more than I "need to buy".

In a "booming economy" that's often reversed - there are more folks running around with money and willing to pay higher prices, and as a buyer, I risk losing out on an item I want if I don't buy it quickly at asking price or thereabouts.

The other factor is "current desirablity". I like Genz Benz amps. At the moment, Shuttlemax 9.2's sell on TB within a few hours of posting. Shuttle 6's (older, less currently "hot") take a while. Even Streamliners, which were last year's "hot hot hot" amps, take a while to sell, and prices have dropped - not because of anything inherent in the bass community, but because of their availability on the market vs. their demand.