Why the bass community is hurting itself.

[BlueTalon]

Now, there are internet attempts to replace the function of the expert at the little store. For example: Pandora. "If you like Jimi Hendrix, you must like Jeff Beck." But I don't use Pandora, for this reason: Jimi Hendrix might inspire me to listen to Thelonious Monk. Or gnawa music from northern Africa. Or Bob Dylan. With someone like the guy at the little video store, you can have a conversation: "Actually, it's not Grace Kelly I'm after, it's the cinematographer who did this movie. Can you help me out there?" "Oh, sure... [etc.]"

End of rant...

You make a lot of good points, but I can't relate to your complaint about Pandora. I have gotten turned on to a lot of different music and artists by Pandora's music genome approach, that I would otherwise never heard of. For example, Donny Iris lead me to Sun Dial -- never would have heard of them otherwise.

To put it another way... If indeed listening to Hendrix might inspire you to listen to African music, how would you even know? Unless you have ready access to African music, or are already familiar with it, there's not really any way Hendrix could lead you to African music. On Pandora, Hendrix might lead you to Robin Trower or Frank Marino, who then might lead you to someone else.

 

[dougjwray]

You make a lot of good points, but I can't relate to your complaint about Pandora. I have gotten turned on to a lot of different music and artists by Pandora's music genome approach, that I would otherwise never heard of. For example, Donny Iris lead me to Sun Dial -- never would have heard of them otherwise.

To put it another way... If indeed listening to Hendrix might inspire you to listen to African music, how would you even know? Unless you have ready access to African music, or are already familiar with it, there's not really any way Hendrix could lead you to African music. On Pandora, Hendrix might lead you to Robin Trower or Frank Marino, who then might lead you to someone else.

Well, I could see Pandora being used as a tool along with many other things. I used to use album liner notes to educate me and lead me from one artist or genre to another. Liner notes by scholars, serious reviewers and musicologists, and other things written by such people, have been one good way for me to get from Hendrix to gnawa music, for example.
I was comparing Pandora to a knowledgeable human at a video store, and pointing out that you can't have a conversation with Pandora. One of my best friends spent years as the "world music" buyer at Tower Records, and he was a walking encyclopedia. People used to come from far away to pick his brain. That type of thing is dying out.
More examples about Pandora: When I hear Hendrix's "The Wind Cries Mary", I'm put in the mood to hear country & western-style guitar playing, maybe by Chet Atkins or Jerry Reed. That won't happen. Pandora will follow him with Jefferson Airplane. When I hear Messiaen's "Turangalila Symphony", which was influenced by Balinese gamelan music, I'm put in the mood to hear some gamelan music. But Pandora would probably give me more 20th century classical music. And when I hear the Beatles' "If I Fell", it makes me think of Elizabethan music by someone like John Donne or William Byrd... not the Kinks.
I know I'm sounding pretentious here, but it's just that Pandora's not "smart" enough for me. I'm sure that it does serve a purpose by introducing lots of people to stuff they would never know about.

 

[rogerbmiller]

I churn a lot of stuff. I agree with many points made here and disagree with many as well. In short I think that you cannot make a blanket statement about the internet ruining pricing for all basses. That may work for some but not all.

For example, the OP mentions his Guild Pilot. Bought at $700, sold at $400. While the Guild Pilot is certainly a fine bass, it is in low demand. Lest I risk offending anyone, I won't want to explain why I think demand is low for the bass but I have owned a few and have had the same experience. However I bought and sold mine for the same $400. So nothing gained, nothing lost. Surely when the Pilot was more contemporary, it had a higher value. But over time, with basses, in my experience unless there is a real fondness and demand for them as collectible or vintage instruments, most just become second hand models that were discontinued. I assumed that was the case with my Pilots. I just wanted them for nostalgia purposes and when that wore off, I expected to sell them for break even which I did. But I bought them in 2005 and sold them in 2007. I owuld probably have lost money if I bought them in 1995.

Yet I do agree with some of the points made by the OP. People on ebay can watch completed listings and whether or not those completed transactions are the norm, or if that day the buyer was looking there just happened to be a lot of abnormally high or low prices paid, it anchors peoples expectations on a number and than can affect the market price for a while. What I have seen is the motivated sellers need to sell so they do. Everyone else just holds out so the net net is a much less fluid market.

I do think that another thing that should be considered is that people are skiddish about ebay. I used to do all my buying (and selling) up there and now I rarely do. There are simply too many ways for buyers and sellers to game the system. Add to that, people are often asking obnoxiously high prices for certain basses that it just doesn't seem like a place to find stuff. And I am not suggesting I need to find "deals" up there. I am just talking about fair prices.

Ultimately I do think that marketing and trends set prices more than internet listings on used gear for sale. I have watched many different older bass models come in and out of favor with prices rises and following accordingly. Each bass has a different story but ultimately I think we can all agree that discontinued basses which people really like will command more value in the marketplace than basses that are mass produced and readily available second hand. As long as people still really like them-- and tastes can change with trends. I am not suggesting this is the case with the OPs bass at all. Each bass is different.

 

[richntiff]

the market drives the price/value. Not the other way around.

 

[fraublugher]

If we all pitch in , we can get TRichardsbass an Evelyn Waugh correspondence course.









to shorten his posts

 

[zfunkman]

I tried to sell an Alembic Persuader for $1100 and a 87 Tobias Classic 5 for $1800 on Ebay; I did not get a single hit to meet my reserve. I ended up selling them through Bass NW. They sold the basses for $1400 and $2200 within 3 weeks and I got more than I was asking for in the first place. This was about 10 years ago. Whats funny is that Bass NW sold those basses online and if the buyers would of looked on Ebay they would of got a great deal. There are a lot of people who shop online that pretty much want everything for free.

 

[TRichardsbass]

Another issue. Why must a post be short? Short attention span? Why?

I like the written word and understand that most things cannot be put in 140 characters.

Apple owns recorded music right now. So if it doesnt work on the iPod dont bother. Another reason to just get rid of all analog recording. You can NEVER hear the intricasies of analog recording properly in the digital realm. And it does cheapen the music. Also, so many have become adverse to paying for music. Not rational. It may be the norm but not rational.

Either way, I understand the points and it is a great discussion.

 

[InternetAlias]

Here's my economy system: time and urgency costs. I buy stuff from people who are desperate to sell it. I don't try to lower the price and if they ask for more for some reason I will usually pay. Then I try out gear excessively to see if it fits my needs. If it doesn't and I end up not needing it, I put it up for the original price or even more, if I figure out it could sell. So, someone wants to sell something in certain time period, they lower the price, I buy it, I have time, don't need cash, use gear, sell it for the original price or more. Notice how this was completely dependent on personal situation and not real market values or personal values. For example, a guy can value his stomp box 50$ but he will sell it for 20$ if desperate. I buy it for 20$ to try it out, I see I don't really need it so I sell it for 30$. People always complain how whatever gear they buy new it devalues... rarely people say "hey, I can sell my stingray for only 600, but then again, I can get that rick for only 800$!". People fail to see both sides of the system because they are hurt by transactions that aren't in their favor.

 

[UncleFluffy]

You can NEVER hear the intricasies of analog recording properly in the digital realm.

In the crappy, over-compressed 128k mp3 realm, maybe. But there's a lot more to digital than the audio equivalent of Bud Light.

 

[SirMjac28]

I tried to sell an Alembic Persuader for $1100 and a 87 Tobias Classic 5 for $1800 on Ebay; I did not get a single hit to meet my reserve. I ended up selling them through Bass NW. They sold the basses for $1400 and $2200 within 3 weeks and I got more than I was asking for in the first place. This was about 10 years ago. Whats funny is that Bass NW sold those basses online and if the buyers would of looked on Ebay they would of got a great deal. There are a lot of people who shop online that pretty much want everything for free.

It could be the buyers felt more comfortable in buying from a dealer than an individual because they are more than likely able and willing to make it right if something goes bad with the transaction I've done that myself I'll pay extra because I can call a business and more times than not I won't have that opportunity with an individual.

 

[Joe Nerve]

God, Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change
The courage to change the things I can
And the wisdom to know the difference

I believe this getting what a bass is worth thing falls into the things I cannot change category.

For that reason I only buy basses at great prices, and then sell them for the same or a little bit more.

 

[carlthegroover]

Market determines cost. Individuals determine value. There is no "true value." And if Guild Pilots are dirt cheap, then you, as someone who values them, should be happy because you can buy more of them. But if you're selling, then you're sad - but if you're selling then perhaps the value to you is less "true" than you think.

I guess that's the thing: we ideally shouldn't buy gear unless we like it a lot and plan to use it for a long while. Otherwise, reselling values tend to be pathetic for barely-used or almost brand new gear. I did sell three guitars and two basses already, and I lost a whole lot of money in the process (around or more than 50% of the original price). Not too shocking considering I didn't sell any gear soon after I bought it, but still disappointing.

 

[acmebass]

Hi Tom,

Yes, Andy Lewis here. I just signed up for Talkbass. How 'bout that??

Quick comment. Your observations, to me, seem to be spot on. But I don't really think it's about bass or the bass guitar community. It's about the recession, during which nobody seem to have as much disposable income, and about the internet. Also, the common use of low-cost third-world labor has tended to depress the cost of all manufactured goods, in the music industry and elsewhere.

Also, service-oriented stores, and not just music stores, are getting pounded, between the internet and the big-box store. The practice of trying out the merchandise at the high-overhead store, and then buying it off the internet is pervasive, and contributes a LOT to the problems stores are having.

In an environment like this, it's not surprising that you would get nickle and dimed to death when trying to sell a good piece at a good price. I don't have an answer. I will tell you, that our experience trying to reach out to service oriented bass shops, with the idea of having my Acme models represented in their stores, hasn't worked out at all, partly because the stores seem to charge an awful lot for what they do, and partly because they seem to go belly-up all the time because of the very conditions I describe here.

I know Jim Bergantino is sticking with his use of retailers, but I'm not sure how, and haven't talked to him for a while. And I think you Brubaker dudes are as well- funny, I don't think we ever talked about it!

But times are hard, and a lot of people and business are struggling, and these various concerns are all a result of a confluence of factors- some of which you've pointed out.