Rule #1 of running a business (selling your bass): Morally obligating customers to buy your product never works. Better for the environment, nope. Better for the economy, nada. This should not be a surprise, and you need to stop pointing fingers. Internet shopping is never going to take over the world, because we cannot teleport things yet, and people have urgency. Let the market do its thing. You aren't going to stop it.
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Why the bass community is hurting itself.
- Thread starter TRichardsbass
- Start date
- Jun 3, 2009
- 3,330
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- Bassgearu, Music Industry Consulting and Sales. Tech 21, NBE Corp, Sonosphere.
Interesting perspectives.
My rant started with a persons perspective, then had to divert to discuss the effects of deal of the day on everyone then back.
I was never foolish enough to think that this isnt a buyers market. It was his thoughts that he wanted the bass and even agreed it was a very good price, but still wanted to wait for deal of the day mentality.
It wasnt that he thought it was too high or that I was way off.
Either way, yes the internet gives you an idea of what people have paid for something but not necessarily its value. When someone dumps an item, even a house, it devalues everything like it. And I see a lot of that.
My house is worth, according to the bank, $324k in this market. The same appraiser told me good luck getting anything over $250k because there are three foreclosures within a mile that are similar that are listed for $225k. The appraiser even noted that my house is much younger and in imaculate condition compared to the others. But their price negates the value mine is, even aggressively priced. The price of the foreclosures is not a market price. Its a deal of the day price.
Either way, at least there are still builders like Alembic and Fodeta out there.
My rant started with a persons perspective, then had to divert to discuss the effects of deal of the day on everyone then back.
I was never foolish enough to think that this isnt a buyers market. It was his thoughts that he wanted the bass and even agreed it was a very good price, but still wanted to wait for deal of the day mentality.
It wasnt that he thought it was too high or that I was way off.
Either way, yes the internet gives you an idea of what people have paid for something but not necessarily its value. When someone dumps an item, even a house, it devalues everything like it. And I see a lot of that.
My house is worth, according to the bank, $324k in this market. The same appraiser told me good luck getting anything over $250k because there are three foreclosures within a mile that are similar that are listed for $225k. The appraiser even noted that my house is much younger and in imaculate condition compared to the others. But their price negates the value mine is, even aggressively priced. The price of the foreclosures is not a market price. Its a deal of the day price.
Either way, at least there are still builders like Alembic and Fodeta out there.
Then your house is "worth" 250K.
If your agent believes otherwise, have HIM buy it and flip it for a huge profit.
If your agent believes otherwise, have HIM buy it and flip it for a huge profit.
- Oct 18, 2012
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- Endorsing Artist: Fender, Spector, Ampeg, Curt Mangan, Nordstrand Pickups, Korg , Conquest Sound
I worked in the mortgage industry for several years. Your appraiser is not completely correct. Values are based on recent sales not on listings. They may make note of listings but it is sales that determine market value. A good appraiser will not use foreclosures or short sales unless they absolutely have to and even then they will make a note as to the reason why the property sold at less than market value. My house was appraised last week. I informed the appraiser that the house across the street from me had sold for $250,000 in July but was in such poor condition that the new owner still has not moved in. There is another house around the corner that sold for $205,000 and is still vacant. The appraiser used the house across the street but noted the fact that it is still vacant due to renovations still being process. I just had a new kitchen installed and did some other work. The end result is that my house appraised far above what it would had if the appraiser had simply used foreclosures and short sales to determine value.
Roy Vogt
Supporting Member
- Sep 20, 2000
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- Endorsing Artist: Kiesel Basses, Ampeg Amplification, Hotone Ampero II effects
I get what you're saying, Tom. We are going through a couple of storage sheds and we are selling a 70s era Fender Rhodes Stage 73 in pretty clean condition. Seale Keyworks (the Pro Shop here) says that those keyboards are in the $800-1000 range. I had 4 people message me over my FB groups when I found it, and now it's crickets when I let everyone know the value. In CL here there are 3 Fender Rhodes from $500 (rough) to $1000, I am just prepared to wait it out here for a bit.
I have to disagree - the foreclosures are part of "the market." There is no inherent value to anything. The individual determines it, and a price is the result of buyer and seller, for whatever reason or under whatever circumstances, finding the acceptable number.
On that we can agree. I'm about to write a big check to Fodeta [sic].
In part because I take the process of making music personally, and can afford (because of choices I've made) to foster relationships with people like Fodera, Jule, Rob Allen, etc.
Forget the influence of the web and it's effect on leveling the pricing structure of durable goods from one coast to the other. Some items, like homes, are regionally influenced and with the lack of borrowing power out there the market is driven down. I understand what you're going through. I've got a condo for sale in Princeton (which should be recession proof due to the University) but it's listed 25% below what it was appraised for 3 years ago. Right now I don't need the cash but I'd rather have the assets to pick up a property down south for retirement while those prices are low.
Today is a buyers market for housing, guitars, etc... Created mostly because "desperate people are doing desperate things".
Today is a buyers market for housing, guitars, etc... Created mostly because "desperate people are doing desperate things".
Value is directly tied to perceived benefit. If I can buy the same bass for $100 less than an identical bass at a higher price point then the better value (benefit for dollars expended) tilts toward the lower priced bass unless there are perks that come with buying the bass that is at the higher price point. As someone else mentioned earlier there are rarely perks (warranty, setup, gracious return policy, etc.) involved with the purchase of a used instrument. Ergo the better value is the lower priced bass in this circumstance, buying the higher priced bass would just be silly.
- Jun 3, 2009
- 3,330
- 399
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- Bassgearu, Music Industry Consulting and Sales. Tech 21, NBE Corp, Sonosphere.
In my case 55er there are no other Alembic Excels for sale anywhere. So in your example, which is correct, it is a better value.
However in my case its an almost one of a kind at a good price. Its not like they appear every day like anything in a P or J bass style.
So it made his thought process even more interesting. Not a lot of supply so a good price should work.
Either way just my thoughts on how always trying to squeeze every last penny and internet deal of the day/big box can hurt you onboth sides of the transaction.
Oh and I know all too well how real estate works. My appraisal is correct. His observation is correct also. As for foreclosures being part of the market forces they are but its not based on actual value. Banks look to cover losses. So the home itself may be worth more then the sale price but they lose money every day they hold it. So they dump it. Also another reason people look to buy them. Get something worth more then they pay. A good "value" but not representative of the honrs true value.
However in my case its an almost one of a kind at a good price. Its not like they appear every day like anything in a P or J bass style.
So it made his thought process even more interesting. Not a lot of supply so a good price should work.
Either way just my thoughts on how always trying to squeeze every last penny and internet deal of the day/big box can hurt you onboth sides of the transaction.
Oh and I know all too well how real estate works. My appraisal is correct. His observation is correct also. As for foreclosures being part of the market forces they are but its not based on actual value. Banks look to cover losses. So the home itself may be worth more then the sale price but they lose money every day they hold it. So they dump it. Also another reason people look to buy them. Get something worth more then they pay. A good "value" but not representative of the honrs true value.
I am in the Audio/Video Home Theater market and it kills me to hear all my industry peers bitch and complain about no margin and people not wanting to pay what things are worth and then the next day they talk about buying something (motorcycle, camera, etc...) and talk about what THEY are doing to get a good deal! It's all the same until you are the seller.
If offers are ridiculous, they won't ever be accepted, and so can't hurt the market. If they are accepted, it's because they aren't actually so unfair after all.
If low offers are dragging the market down in a statistically significant way, that means there is a genuine downward shift in the monetary value of the item.
Supply of what? If the buyer is looking only for an Alembic Excel, then true, but if they are looking for 'a high end bass', there are plenty out there, including many that are very nice one-of-a-kind basses.
If low offers are dragging the market down in a statistically significant way, that means there is a genuine downward shift in the monetary value of the item.
Supply of what? If the buyer is looking only for an Alembic Excel, then true, but if they are looking for 'a high end bass', there are plenty out there, including many that are very nice one-of-a-kind basses.
I think the overall point here is that, if I buy a MIM Jazz for ~$600 new, then sell it for $250, the new used price is $250 because "that's what they go for" (according to the buyer). This makes it more difficult for stores to stay in business because people are buying them ridiculously cheap online because they're able to find someone willing to sell it for that price.
SirMjac28
Patiently Waiting For The Next British Invasion
+1 I'm confused if I see a bass for sale at a low price do I offer more to help stabilize the prices? I buy low and sale as high as I can. l think we should go back to the old days when local music stores gave you a price and if you didn't like it take a walk.
Sounds about right to me as well... Add that to the OP's story about the bank teller basically giving away her own job... We are in for some rude realty checks (or have already experienced same).
Chinese goods have long been sought after because of low price... Fender manufactures there, GE, even Buick! Many of my neighbors are out of jobs for this very reason...
We do indeed reap what we sow.
Uhmm..news flash: buying something at the lowest possible price is certainly not hurting at the buyer's end.
A buyer can get an item for a good price, but he/she waits for a killer deal... yeah, who - in his right mind - would possibly want to save money on an transaction, when he can pay more? Yeah, I don't get it either...
Unless someone is willing to pay whatever the asked ammount is, that "one of a kind" item has a crappy market value. Prices go up and down - just because something is worth a lot of money today, doesn't mean it will still sell for that price tomorrow. And lately prices don't seem to go up...
I think some of this has to do with the 'buy it to try it and flip it' thing that we all do with gear - that really makes people focus not on what it's worth to them compared to other things in their lives, but what they can flip it for, so the logic gets a bit circular.
It does not end with manufactured goods, either. Look at where the British and American empires have been. Call center jobs are sent to India and the Philippines, due to the linguistic legacies left there.
