Prior to this thread, I thought it was just a cosmetic thing, like panty-lines or racing stripes. Silly me.
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Why the hate towards lined fretless?
- Thread starter Tropic
- Start date
Which hobbiests are claiming that Jaco and What'choo talkin' Bout Willis don't know what they're doing?
Careful about pulling the hobbiest card. Just because someone has a day job doesn't mean they're not still practicing hard and/or talented musicians. While doctors and lawyers often get bashed, I've known more than a few whose musical abilities were very amazing. Not surprising because they tend to be motivated individuals in general. One of the best classical guitarists I ever met was a surgeon and my jaw dropped.
Any more shots you need to take? I have not stated that lined is cheating, but you insist that unlined can't intonate above the 12th position. I don't mean to sound cocky or insulting when I say that it's not difficult, but I've been doing it for a while. FWIW, I'm primarily a fretless player and have spent a lot of time on my various fretli.
My instructor is a bass professional. He makes his living off of it. Teaches, both privately and at universities. He is probably the busiest working bass musician in town for live gigs and sessions. He often plays an unlined fretless (Gary Willis model too..hmmm). He hangs with Kats like Bob Mintzner when he comes to town. I've seen him play Donna Lee many times, along with other very fast complicated basslines, in the upper registers. Saying you can't do it (as has been refuted by evidence in the videos) or that you need fretlines to do it because "insert name here" used fretlines is wrong. If you prefer lines on your fretless, great! No problem at all. There is nothing wrong with fret lines. If you think they somehow make it easier to learn, that's only your opinion and experience, not universal truth. They aren't necessary to be a professional high level player, and there isn't any difference in the obtainable skill level due to lines or not. Lines wouldn't be the limiting factor, your practice time and talent would.
This is, as you said, your preference. I have no interest in fretless bass guitars, but as a violinist, I never used lines or other helpers. But as a teacher I can say that some students do get benefit of having some "ear guideLINES" for the violin when they are at the very beginning stage. Then we take those tape lines away, depending on each student and their advancement.
Even in the violin world there's much closemindedness about these tape lines: some teachers would not use them at all. I believe it all depends on the student and their needs. Some never ever need these tape "lines".
Translated to bass; let anybody play and pay for whatever they want. IF I ever wanted to play fretless (which I have no interest in, due to personal preference) I would buy an unlined one, because ultimately, they are guides, and not meant to provide precise fretless intonation. Fretless instruments' intonation is hardly ever the same. It all depends on the scales being played. In other words, fretless intonation is never set on the same lines, even without vibrato. Plus I do think that unlined fretless has a cool look.
This decision should never be based on elitism or arrogance. Only on what works for you. If you think you are accomplished because you don't need the lines, good for you. I play "fretless violin," but would never play fretless bass. Some people would rather have these lines, and I even enjoy the frets! And none is better than the other; it's all about what you dig, is efficient for you, and works for you.
Originally Posted by SteveC View Post
"Some great players have lines, others don't. I hate the crutch argument. Same as in compressor threads. Tools. Some use them, some don't."
What would people think if you used a compressor with an unlined fretless??!!!
I'm a tool, not using tools, while using a tool, when I'm not "supposed" to be tooling with my natural sound. *gasp*
"Some great players have lines, others don't. I hate the crutch argument. Same as in compressor threads. Tools. Some use them, some don't."
What would people think if you used a compressor with an unlined fretless??!!!
I'm a tool, not using tools, while using a tool, when I'm not "supposed" to be tooling with my natural sound. *gasp*
Sam, did anybody point out that you're not only a "no fretlines elitist" but also a "boutique bass snob" And if that's not enough, you're one of those fancy "time trial bike riders who make the rest of us look slow." darn you and your kind!
PS. i like fretlines. I recently got an unlined Rob Allen and had Rob add back the lines. Its my lined, unlined bass. Sounds trick.
The I got some fast food and ate it slow.
PPS. Sorry, my medicine is really kicking in.
Well, perhaps I can add some new light to the subject or most probably add more fuel to the fire 
Here is what I would like to know:
1- If you're a fretless bass player and using an unlined fingerboard, how do u find the notes in the middle of a 120bpm, above the 15th. fret run? A good ear here, IMHO, has no use because by the time you hear the note it's out already and it's time to fret the next one. Even if you have it memorized, how do improvise runs like these on an unlined fretless?
2- Do you use ANY visual cues, maybe visible marks in the wood grain, or none whatsoever?
I'm aware that players like Manring & Steve Bailey pull it off all the time, but I think it'll have to be purely or mostly muscle memory. In this case, i.e. for these players when playing these fast runs, it doesn't really make a difference to them if the f.b. is lined or not.
3- If it is indeed purely a muscle memory kind of skill, how hard is it to develop it compared with an upright?
4- What do you do if you wake up one morning and your muscle memory is screwed up? I mean I know that even musicians with perfect pitch, it changes as they age and p.p. wouldn't be much of a blessing any more.
Here is what I would like to know:
1- If you're a fretless bass player and using an unlined fingerboard, how do u find the notes in the middle of a 120bpm, above the 15th. fret run? A good ear here, IMHO, has no use because by the time you hear the note it's out already and it's time to fret the next one. Even if you have it memorized, how do improvise runs like these on an unlined fretless?
2- Do you use ANY visual cues, maybe visible marks in the wood grain, or none whatsoever?
I'm aware that players like Manring & Steve Bailey pull it off all the time, but I think it'll have to be purely or mostly muscle memory. In this case, i.e. for these players when playing these fast runs, it doesn't really make a difference to them if the f.b. is lined or not.
3- If it is indeed purely a muscle memory kind of skill, how hard is it to develop it compared with an upright?
4- What do you do if you wake up one morning and your muscle memory is screwed up? I mean I know that even musicians with perfect pitch, it changes as they age and p.p. wouldn't be much of a blessing any more.
I've owned both ... and after going back and forth, on which I prefer most ... it's lined. This is especially true for second octave playing. Below that ... I really see positive and negative points about having them or not, as I look at the fretboard much less.
For me ...
An unlined board allows me to play a bit more freely. Letting my ears do the brunt of the work ... while letting the timbre go wild. I seem to play much more fluid without lines, and a bit quicker too.
As for a lined neck ... again helpful for 2nd octave play. Also I find it much easier to establish patterns. Since I started off playing a fretted bass ... my mind's eye still sees those patterns, and it's easier to translate those patterns to actual play with them there. IMO ... it helps to keep my fingers in-check when I play chords.
Although I do like the esthetic look of an unlined bass, some lined ones look pretty cool too (especially the short lined ones, ala F bass).
Well ... they are not the same instruments.
An "Upright bass" ... formerly know, just as a "bass" ... isn't the same instrument as a "bass guitar". Eventhough the bass guitar is tonally based upon an Upright ... it's still a guitar. And guitars, most typically, are fretted instruments ... historically.
With that, comparing an unlined Upright bass to a "fretless" bass guitar isn't comparing apples to apples ... more like apples to oranges. Just because a "fretless" bass guitar does not have "frets" does not nessarily mean that a fretless bass guitar shouldn't have "guidelines" ... as that is what they truely are ... guidelines. It does not make the instrument nor the player, inferior ... or to be looked down upon.
If the arguement compared an "Lined" Upright Bass to another Upright Bass; or even a Cello, Violin, or Viola ... it might hold a bit more weight, as they are all based upon the same design. The last time I checked ... you can't effectively "bow" a bass guitar.
For me ...
An unlined board allows me to play a bit more freely. Letting my ears do the brunt of the work ... while letting the timbre go wild. I seem to play much more fluid without lines, and a bit quicker too.
As for a lined neck ... again helpful for 2nd octave play. Also I find it much easier to establish patterns. Since I started off playing a fretted bass ... my mind's eye still sees those patterns, and it's easier to translate those patterns to actual play with them there. IMO ... it helps to keep my fingers in-check when I play chords.
Although I do like the esthetic look of an unlined bass, some lined ones look pretty cool too (especially the short lined ones, ala F bass).
Well ... they are not the same instruments.
An "Upright bass" ... formerly know, just as a "bass" ... isn't the same instrument as a "bass guitar". Eventhough the bass guitar is tonally based upon an Upright ... it's still a guitar. And guitars, most typically, are fretted instruments ... historically.
With that, comparing an unlined Upright bass to a "fretless" bass guitar isn't comparing apples to apples ... more like apples to oranges. Just because a "fretless" bass guitar does not have "frets" does not nessarily mean that a fretless bass guitar shouldn't have "guidelines" ... as that is what they truely are ... guidelines. It does not make the instrument nor the player, inferior ... or to be looked down upon.
If the arguement compared an "Lined" Upright Bass to another Upright Bass; or even a Cello, Violin, or Viola ... it might hold a bit more weight, as they are all based upon the same design. The last time I checked ... you can't effectively "bow" a bass guitar.
I'm just gonna toss out something -
As a trombone player, in a band setting you're told don't listen to the sax or you'll play out of tune, too. In an orchestral setting, it's "don't listen to the strings or you'll go sharp."
I was coached the same as a vocalist.
On the other hand, the trombone is the easiest instrument in the world to play in tune, as nothing gets in your way, and the sound is right there in your head.
Perhaps intonation is harder on a fingerboard because the sound is down in your hands, harder to hear.
As a trombone player, in a band setting you're told don't listen to the sax or you'll play out of tune, too. In an orchestral setting, it's "don't listen to the strings or you'll go sharp."
I was coached the same as a vocalist.
On the other hand, the trombone is the easiest instrument in the world to play in tune, as nothing gets in your way, and the sound is right there in your head.
Perhaps intonation is harder on a fingerboard because the sound is down in your hands, harder to hear.
Going "sharp" is actually pretty common with fretless players. I guess that's why "correct intonation" is so difficult for fretless players (with or without lines) to do well.
Lined = I'm able to play it. I have only tried fretless one time (happened to be a Jaco signature model), and was able to play it with good intonation straight away. Getting used to a fretless without the lines would take up a lot of time, so I guess I won't buy an unlined at any time.
Lined or Unlined... It doesn't matter as long as the bass sounds good. Remember to let your ears to the work. Look at the audience, not the bass.
Played my first fretless today.
Was in a local shop that has a sweet looking Stagg Fretless. Liked it cause it had a dark unlined fretboard with dots on the side. But it was weird cause I'm used to tuning on the second dot. The Stagg tuned to the 3rd dot.
Tuned that way it seemed to play fine using the fingering I'm used to on my Ibanez fretted bass.
But I really loved the look of the unlined fingerboard!
The little bass was so light and that sweet semi-upright sound. It may be my next bass.
Was in a local shop that has a sweet looking Stagg Fretless. Liked it cause it had a dark unlined fretboard with dots on the side. But it was weird cause I'm used to tuning on the second dot. The Stagg tuned to the 3rd dot.
Tuned that way it seemed to play fine using the fingering I'm used to on my Ibanez fretted bass.
But I really loved the look of the unlined fingerboard!
The little bass was so light and that sweet semi-upright sound. It may be my next bass.
