• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Why the hate towards lined fretless?

I have a question that may (or may not) fit into this...

I have been wanting to get a fretless for a while and assumed that I should probably get a lined board, since I have no idea if I'd be any good at it.

When I play a fretted bass, I play with my fingers right behind the frets. Would this help (or hurt?) to play an unlined board from the get-go?
Doesn't matter IMO. My first fretless was unlined, I don't think it was a detriment. I have one lined and one unlined fretless today and neither is easier to intone than the other. Sounds like your fretted technique is good; did you take lessons? If you finger right behind the fret, which was taught to me as the "proper" technique when I took lessons so many moons ago, I think fretless intonation is easier to achieve.
 
. You set intonation relative to the octave usually and everything else will come into line pretty close. If you are still out of tune, maybe the setup, strings, or other things may be factors, lots of problems can occur.

It's not always obvious, but fretted instruments aren't perfect, simple as that. As someone mentioned earlier, certain spots might be more on the money than others, but it exists. Grab a guitar and play a barre chord up and down the neck and you'll notice certain areas will have the wobble of a slightly out of tune note or two. This still exists on bass, but generally isn't as obvious since chording isn't the most common.
 
Doesn't matter IMO. My first fretless was unlined, I don't think it was a detriment. I have one lined and one unlined fretless today and neither is easier to intone than the other. Sounds like your fretted technique is good; did you take lessons? If you finger right behind the fret, which was taught to me as the "proper" technique when I took lessons so many moons ago, I think fretless intonation is easier to achieve.

Despite years of drum lessons, I never had a bass lesson. I can't remember taking notice of anyone fretting like that so I think it's just something I did.

Are the side dots on an unlined board generally where the "lines" would be or are they still in the "middle" like on a fretted instrument?
 
What I'm sure of is I will know when I died and went to heaven. It will be when I'm on stage with a Trombone player and a Slide Guitarist and we're all in tune. Lines or no lines. :D
 
To me, an unlined fretless bass neck is one of the most beautiful objects ever.
Like some guy having a real Lamborghini in front of him for the first time… "I want to / could never / master that thing!". :eek:

Whenever i see an upright or fretless-bassist live, i think there's some "kind of magic" to reach the right note on an unmarked neck, while still knowing it's all about ear and practice of course…

Couldn't the non-marked/fretted string instrument be seen as a kind of exception amongst string instruments…? Just a question, not a statement, BTW…
 
I just "cheated" when I had my fretless made....unlined fretboard, but with side dot markers at the same positions as the fretlines would be. I wanted the look of an unlined fretboard, and the side dot markers are a nice compromise, giving me some position reference. They aren't a perfect substitute though, as you get some parallax error, particularly in higher positions. Either way, its just a matter of preference, and like some have pointed out, even with fretlines (or dot markers in my case) you still have to develop your ear for intonation.

This post should have put an end to all further discussion. Excellent reply!! Play on the dots - not the lines - and develop your ear. You're a musician!

Z
 
I have a question that may (or may not) fit into this...

I have been wanting to get a fretless for a while and assumed that I should probably get a lined board, since I have no idea if I'd be any good at it.

When I play a fretted bass, I play with my fingers right behind the frets. Would this help (or hurt?) to play an unlined board from the get-go?

Well, I started bass on an upright. I've got both lined and unlined fretless bass guitars. And here's what I know so far:

1. Getting a reference point on a fretless bass guitar is harder than on an upright (Upright has positions that give you reference).

2. The REAL reference points on a fretless are the dots on the SIDE of the neck. BOTH lined and unlined have them!

3. Lined necks are indeed a "crutch" for the noob for two reasons. The first (not so important) is the lines give you reference points at every note not just at certain ones like the dots do. And the second is that because a guitar is held at a side angle unlike an upright there is a tendency to start fingering across the neck at an angle ruining your intonation on the higher strings. Lines remind you not to do that especially when you are practicing and developing your ear! So for that they are an aid for the beginner.

4. But there is a difference between performing and practicing. Performing, you won't be seeing the lines anyway, so they won't matter. If you haven't developed your ear and muscle memory while woodshedding, lines ain't gonna do it on stage.

5. Lined necks have a bad rep because of the perception that they are "cheater" lines that imply the player is a noob. (see above)

6. Lined necks have a bad rap because often entry level bass makers offer a fretless model that is just the fretted model but where they charge more for not bothering to install the frets! Hence it tends to have a rep of a cheap entry level less-than-gigable bass.

[By the way, if you don't know if you'd like/be good at fretless an SX fretless is an excellent way to go. Cheap. Reasonable playability and tone. Lines (natch). And you can get a large percentage of that minimal investment back if fretless is not for you.]

7. Lined necks in my experience make the bass appear to be a fretted instrument. The audience (even some bass players) never seem to notice that your lined neck bass is fretless no matter how many fretless licks you play.

8. Which leaves us with the issue of "look". By all of the above, you can see that if you really wish to "show class" on stage and make a big point of the fact "look, I'm playing a bass with no marks on the neck to tell me where the notes are", then obviously only an blank plank will do the job.

So as it turns out my Alembic 6 is blank. Clearly you can "show class" with that! My SX fretless has lines because...well it actually IS a cheapo entry level hundred dollar bass! And I WISH my G&L L-2500 were blank but it has lines because it was used and that's what the previous owner ordered.

And my Carvin Acoustic fretless has lines because it was my first fretless bass guitar and *I* ordered it that way because like ModuMan I believed that lines would be a help. And as noted above to a small degree they were. But they certainly weren't as big a help as I thought, and you certainly don't need lines to learn to play fretless, and sadly later you discover the issue of lined fretless basses being mistaken for fretted basses on stage. So if "showing class" on stage is important to you, I'd make the effort to learn without lines so the bass will have the right "look" later when you can really play it.
 
USUALLY. I've seen reviews of some unlined fretless bases that complained about the dots being in between (I think the Lace Helix was like that). It's worth checking before buying, just to be sure ...

You do need to watch for this. With fretless basses the notes are ON the dots and ON the fretlines. What apparently happens is some makers just offer a "fretless" version by leaving the frets out of one of their fretted versions. That's OK provided they change the side dots to be ON the notes. Unfortunately some makers (clueless) just use their standard fretted necks without frets and not altering anything else. It is REALLY hard to get your bearings off of necks marked like that! Remember that even with lines its dots and ears that usually will be guiding you.
 
The hate towards lined fretless is caused by the same "purist" approach that "fretless vs. upright" causes. It's kind of strange, really.

Personally, I just couldn't care less what people think. I play mostly unlined fretless myself, but lined has clear advantages. As has been pointed out above, a bass guitar neck lacks the position identifiactions that a double bass has. And on an upright, the relative position of your arm towards your body is also a much better reference than on a bass guitar. Hence, while you on a double bass has lots of reference points to your playing, on a fretless bass you have sight and ears to help you out. And obviously, on a lined fretless, you have a stronger visual reference than you have on an unlined fretless.

Take into account that on an unlined fretless, you have the side dots to guide you. However, since you often don't have a visual reference on the treble side of the neck, the side dots are of limited use on the treble strings. Therefore, it helps a great deal to have a lined fretless. Also, when you have to rely heavily on your ears, you do need a good mix. If you're in a venue with little or no light on stage, and when you drown in the mix... unlined fretless is a nightmare. lined fretless requires a little light, too, of course, but you will have a stronger visual reference anyway.

The sound is what matters. Choose whatever instrument you feel makes you sound best. If Victor Wooten, Jaco Pastorius and Gary Willis can play lined fretless, why can't you? ;)
 
Thank you bassbenj and MrWalker for some excellent points.

My goal at this point is really to practice and learn something new, I'm not anticipating playing it live. I don't want to make it harder on myself than need be which makes me think lines are a good place to start.... but I also don't want to cheat myself into relying on lines.

Reminds me of when I played my first bass without face dots... I thought I would miss them but then of course I realized that I never really looked at them anyway.
 
I dunno about the whole "showing class" thing; making sure that people KNOW you're playing a fretless. I don't think folks care about how badass you are for playing unlined fretless - most people don't know what that weird 4 string long guitar is anyways, they don't bother to wonder why it doesn't have metal strips on the long doohicky part of it. Hell, they wouldn't know mwah from Barbra Streisand for that matter.

Don't worry about what it looks like or what people think of you, play what you want to play. If you find lines distracting - go unlined. If you find lines useful - go lined. Nobody but an idiot would take issue with your preference. There's a few of those on Talkbass, but not too many hopefully other than myself.
 
USUALLY. I've seen reviews of some unlined fretless bases that complained about the dots being in between (I think the Lace Helix was like that). It's worth checking before buying, just to be sure ...

Peavey has also done this, although I'm pretty sure they've only done a handful (perhaps less) of custom unlined fretli. My Cirrus originally had the dots in the WRONG spots. Annoying.
 
I dunno about the whole "showing class" thing; making sure that people KNOW you're playing a fretless. I don't think folks care about how badass you are for playing unlined fretless - most people don't know what that weird 4 string long guitar is anyways, they don't bother to wonder why it doesn't have metal strips on the long doohicky part of it. Hell, they wouldn't know mwah from Barbra Streisand for that matter.

Don't worry about what it looks like or what people think of you, play what you want to play. If you find lines distracting - go unlined. If you find lines useful - go lined. Nobody but an idiot would take issue with your preference. There's a few of those on Talkbass, but not too many hopefully other than myself.

Thats actually one of the least idiotic post I've seen in a while.