Why the hate towards lined fretless?

[Thunderthumbs73]

Thanks for this post. I learned a lot being a fretless newbie. I have a cheap squire fretless and thought it was me or the cheapness of the bass for the intonation problem when I played on the lines. i will ignore the lines now.

Thanks for reading, and for understanding.

 

[Gus Borden]

It's funny, but before I picked up a fretless, I was hanging out with another bassist I know who had a lined fretless, when I picked it up, I thought "What the hell, what a cheat".

Then my first fretless ended up being a defret, second was made as a fretless from the beginning with the obligatory side dot markers. I played both and it never bothered me. Eventually they were both sold.

Now I am contemplating another fretless - I keep thinking that I should get a lined b/c it's been so long and I will probably be awful at it. The other part of me thinks that the work and effort to get good at it again will be worth it by far.

I don't know, but Victor is right - play what you're comfortable with!

 

[wshines1892]

In my time playing a fretless, both lined and unlined, I prefer lined. During rehearsal when I'm sitting I can see the lines, and get a good feel for finger spacing and such, then when I play standing up I can't see the front of the fretboard anyway and it makes no difference.

 

[jzucker]

I dunno. If you think Gary Willis, Jaco, Tony Grey and Matt Garrison are cheats than you must be pretty bad @ss.

 

[thmsjordan]

I dunno. If you think Gary Willis, Jaco, Tony Grey and Matt Garrison are cheats than you must be pretty bad @ss.

Playing a lined fretless is not cheating. Bunny Brunell actually advocates using a lined fretless for intonation purposes.

I agree with Mr Lee Skar when he said that (I paraphrase here) there is no cheating. Anything that helps you play better is fair game. I remember when one of my teachers was prepping me for an audition on classical doublebass, he mentioned that on Ein Heldenleben my high Bb was consistently overshot by a tiny bit and was sharp. He calmly took out a pencil played the bass, found the Bb with a tuner and marked it with the pencil. I was ashamed and told him I was sorry I was having so much trouble with intonation. He smiled and told me that he did this exact same thing when he auditioned for major orchestras. Nerves can take a lot away in stressful situations.

There is no cheating.

BTW - to the individual who mentioned that when he played on the lines of his fretless, it was out of tune, I would recommend having a good tech adjust the intonation. Those lines should be good.

 

[spade2you]

Playing a lined fretless is not cheating. Bunny Brunell actually advocates using a lined fretless for intonation purposes.

I think the big "problem" is that lined is viewed as cheating and it's thought to be impossible to have good intonation without lines. Both are false and ultimately, most of us start out on one config and stick with it. If that config doesn't work, try the other. Simple as that.

As I said before, I don't look at the lines as cheating, but confusing. My intonation is pretty good without the lines, so it can be done.

 

[Randall]

Playing a lined fretless is not cheating. Bunny Brunell actually advocates using a lined fretless for intonation purposes.

I agree with Mr Lee Skar when he said that (I paraphrase here) there is no cheating. Anything that helps you play better is fair game. I remember when one of my teachers was prepping me for an audition on classical doublebass, he mentioned that on Ein Heldenleben my high Bb was consistently overshot by a tiny bit and was sharp. He calmly took out a pencil played the bass, found the Bb with a tuner and marked it with the pencil. I was ashamed and told him I was sorry I was having so much trouble with intonation. He smiled and told me that he did this exact same thing when he auditioned for major orchestras. Nerves can take a lot away in stressful situations.

There is no cheating.

BTW - to the individual who mentioned that when he played on the lines of his fretless, it was out of tune, I would recommend having a good tech adjust the intonation. Those lines should be good.

First thing I do when I buy a new bass is set it up intonation included. Still out of tune playing on the lines. and I have pretty good ears too.

 

[spade2you]

BTW - to the individual who mentioned that when he played on the lines of his fretless, it was out of tune, I would recommend having a good tech adjust the intonation. Those lines should be good.

It's not that the basses aren't set up. If you checked every fret or fretline on a given bass, not every note will be in tune in A440. Perfect vs. tempered pitch is another debate for another day.

 

[Sam Evans]

It's not that the basses aren't set up. If you checked every fret or fretline on a given bass, not every note will be in tune in A440. Perfect vs. tempered pitch is another debate for another day.

Indeed. Also, you have to take into account the thickness of the strings, the action, how much you have to bend the string down to make contact with the fingerboard, etc. Strings just aren't in tune in the exact same place. This comes up for upright too.

 

[line6man]

BTW - to the individual who mentioned that when he played on the lines of his fretless, it was out of tune, I would recommend having a good tech adjust the intonation. Those lines should be good.

No, fretlines are not a good indicator of the exact place to finger the notes.

The problem is, the lines are straight and fall in the same location for each string, but each string intonates a bit differently.

I remember there was a chart somewhere that showed how far each "fret" is off on a guitar. Perhaps someone can post it.
Each fret is off by a few cents from where it should be.

 

[spade2you]

I remember there was a chart somewhere that showed how far each "fret" is off on a guitar. Perhaps someone can post it.
Each fret is off by a few cents from where it should be.

Even then, kinda depends on what key you're in, how the individual instrument is set up (action, relief, strings, tuning, etc), and the individual's technique. A very hard technique can make the note slightly sharp when it's struck.

 

[Freddels]

When you're playing with other musicians you're not going to be playing with a tuner. You're going to be playing with other instruments and they aren't tuned to be in perfect tune with a tuner. If you're playing with a guitarist, then the guitar is going to be out of tune by the nature of the frets. You have to be in tune with the other instruments otherwise your intonation is off (even though it might be perfect with a tuner).

This fretlines/no fretlines conversation can go on forever but in the end, it doesn't really matter and it's more of aethetics than anything else.

 

[Roy Vogt]

When you're playing with other musicians you're not going to be playing with a tuner. You're going to be playing with other instruments and they aren't tuned to be in perfect tune with a tuner. If you're playing with a guitarist, then the guitar is going to be out of tune by the nature of the frets. You have to be in tune with the other instruments otherwise your intonation is off (even though it might be perfect with a tuner).

This fretlines/no fretlines conversation can go on forever but in the end, it doesn't really matter and it's more of aethetics than anything else.

Well said-Western music has been "tempered" (slightly out of tune) since Bach's time. I discourage my String Bass students from practicing with a tuner-they won't be using one in their bands or orchestras. I instead suggest their "Organic Binaural Stereo Tuning System". They have one on either side of their head.

 

[Sam Evans]

I discourage my String Bass students from practicing with a tuner-they won't be using one in their bands or orchestras. I instead suggest their "Organic Binaural Stereo Tuning System". They have one on either side of their head.

I'm glad you said that. I'm getting back into upright after a 20 year hiatus, and I was practicing with a tuner and finding it very frustrating, even self-defeating. Now I use the tuner to "set" my ear a bit at the beginning of a practice session, and then turn it off and let my ears work, checking against open strings.

</thread derailment>

 

[spade2you]

I instead suggest their "Organic Binaural Stereo Tuning System". They have one on either side of their head.

I thought GC was out of those.......

 

[nostatic]

I don't care what Bunny Brunnel says...unless he's going to come play my bass. And it isn't just aesthetics - playing music is a psychological game and technology, tuners, and the like are very poor at explaining how that all works together.

I can only offer my personal experience. I have a tougher time playing "well" with fretlines. My theory is that the lines shift the balance toward visual over aural in my little brain, and that is enough to throw me off. I have owned both, and my first fretless was a defret where I could see the lines. I also have played upright over the years so that may influence it to. Yes, I use the dots as a reference point - but they are just that, a reference. One problem (again, my theory) is that a player with fretted experience will unconsciously accept the fretlines as an absolute rather than a reference. And with frets parallax is mostly a non-issue. So then that needs to be overcome with practice.

I agree that there is no "cheating" and no right or wrong. But I will still maintain that for some players fretlines make things harder, not easier. Just depends on how you're wired, what your background is, etc. What gets annoying to some are sweeping generalizations ("fretlines are cheating" or "unlined players are snobs"). Too many people have too many chips on their shoulders. And the way to fix that is practice imho...that would be my sweeping generalization. Practice can solve most anything. And if it can't, then maybe you're not "university material" (to quote Nigel Tufnel). Not everyone can play music at an extremely high level...just like not everyone can play sports as a pro, etc. No shame in that, but good to have a little realistic perspective.

 

[thmsjordan]

Even then, kinda depends on what key you're in, how the individual instrument is set up (action, relief, strings, tuning, etc), and the individual's technique. A very hard technique can make the note slightly sharp when it's struck.

This is true in non tempered tonal situations only - absolute tuning will show any given note differently depending on what note it is referenced to if we are using the accepted spaces between notes in a mthematically perfect scale. FOr example, an F# in a G major scale will be differently pitched than an F# in a B Major scale if you use mathematically perfect intervals, but we do not use absolute pitch relative to the mathematically perfect intervals.

We have been using a "tempered scale" for several hundred years now. If what you guys are saying is true, then no fretted bass would ever sound in tune. You set intonation relative to the octave usually and everything else will come into line pretty close. If you are still out of tune, maybe the setup, strings, or other things may be factors, lots of problems can occur.

 

[plangentmusic]

As for the slight variances in tonality throughout the neck -- that's what vibrato is for.

I say, use lines unless they're a distraction. Then fine tune with your ears.

I even use a few dots on my upright. Why not? You don't get any points for making things harder on yourself. That's just snobbish B.S.

 

[Sam Evans]

I even use a few dots on my upright. Why not? You don't get any points for making things harder on yourself. That's just snobbish B.S.

+++++11111111111111

When I was in music school, even the best players had at least a couple of dots (usually at the D and G on the G string).

 

[ModuMan]

I have a question that may (or may not) fit into this...

I have been wanting to get a fretless for a while and assumed that I should probably get a lined board, since I have no idea if I'd be any good at it.

When I play a fretted bass, I play with my fingers right behind the frets. Would this help (or hurt?) to play an unlined board from the get-go?