Woman Profiled on 9/11

[aborgman]

I would suggest that terrorisim is well outside the bounds of warfare... as defined by Sun Tzu, US Grant, RE Lee, George Patton, or any RESPECTED warfighter, past or present.

Terrorism is blood lust, vengance, hatred personified and transformed into an act. Those who practice it try to legimitize it as a tactic of war.

Lets not redefine terrorism.

Terrorism: the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear.

Any attempt to achieve goals by terrorizing civilians is terrorism, irrelevant of what those goals are.

...as for no respected warfighter using it:

Sherman (and his march ordered by above mentioned Grant).

...and I'm sure Lee knew nothing about the confederate attempts to firebomb hotels in NYC during the election of 1864.

Never mind things like the Dresden and Tokyo firebombings.

 

[Tegzsa]

Here's Sir Arthur "Bomber" Harris. Not a man of many illusions:

"the aim of the Combined Bomber Offensive...should be unambiguously stated [as] the destruction of German cities, the killing of German workers, and the disruption of civilised life throughout Germany."

"... the destruction of houses, public utilities, transport and lives, the creation of a refugee problem on an unprecedented scale, and the breakdown of morale both at home and at the battle fronts by fear of extended and intensified bombing, are accepted and intended aims of our bombing policy. They are not by-products of attempts to hit factories."

And, upon being stopped by a motorcyle policeman for speeding who then said to him "You might have killed someone, sir." Harris replied, "Young man, I kill thousands of people every night."

 

[MatticusMania]

Im not bringing this up to argue the merits of the decision, but could not the dropping of the atomic bombs in Japan also have been construed, by the Japanese, as a terrorist act?

 

[Deleted member 92857]

So the guy who just killed all those people in Norway is a warfighter? Warrior? Soldier? Freedom fighter?

I agree with you that all of the above killed innocent civilians, and there is certainly no black and white line when bloodshed is concerned. But I believe there is a line. The guy in Norway crossed it. The 9/11 hijackers crossed it. Sherman? Truman? Harris? All were operating in declared wars, in kill or be killed (or be conquered) situations. I believe it was Harris who was so shocked by what happened at Dresden that he discontinued firebombing German cities. Would the 9/11 terrorists have discontinued their activities if all of New York went up in a firestorm?

 

[HEIST]

Im not bringing this up to argue the merits of the decision, but could not the dropping of the atomic bombs in Japan also have been construed, by the Japanese, as a terrorist act?

Absolutely.

 

[aborgman]

So the guy who just killed all those people in Norway is a warfighter? Warrior? Soldier? Freedom fighter?

Nah, just a loonie from everything I've read.

Terrorism, like guerilla warfare, is a tactic. Like guerilla warfare it is also a force multiplier.

It's been used by kooks.

It's been used by freedom fighters (see: US revolution, French revolution)

It's been used by warfighters (see: Sherman, Harris)

It's been used by those fighting for statehood (pre-Israel Zionists) and by those attempting to suppress statehood (British in India)...

I agree with you that all of the above killed innocent civilians, and there is certainly no black and white line when bloodshed is concerned. But I believe there is a line. The guy in Norway crossed it. The 9/11 hijackers crossed it. Sherman? Truman? Harris? All were operating in declared wars, in kill or be killed (or be conquered) situations. I believe it was Harris who was so shocked by what happened at Dresden that he discontinued firebombing German cities. Would the 9/11 terrorists have discontinued their activities if all of New York went up in a firestorm?

You continue to conflate the actors, the goals, and the means.

Terrorism is merely a means, a method - it can be used by any actors with any goals good or bad.

 

[colcifer]

Sherman (and his march ordered by above mentioned Grant.

Grant didn't order the march. Sherman came up with the idea and Grant said ok.

 

[Munjibunga]

Im not bringing this up to argue the merits of the decision, but could not the dropping of the atomic bombs in Japan also have been construed, by the Japanese, as a terrorist act?

Not in any way. We were at war with Japan for their sneak attack on Pearl Harbor. We also gave them several opportunities to give up before we dropped the bombs. Remember?

 

[MatticusMania]

Not in any way. We were at war with Japan for their sneak attack on Pearl Harbor. We also gave them several opportunities to give up before we dropped the bombs. Remember?

Yes, however, I doubt that makes it alright in the minds of the many innocent Japanese people who were affected by the bombing.

 

[MIJ-VI]

Here's Sir Arthur "Bomber" Harris. Not a man of many illusions:

"the aim of the Combined Bomber Offensive...should be unambiguously stated [as] the destruction of German cities, the killing of German workers, and the disruption of civilised life throughout Germany."

"... the destruction of houses, public utilities, transport and lives, the creation of a refugee problem on an unprecedented scale, and the breakdown of morale both at home and at the battle fronts by fear of extended and intensified bombing, are accepted and intended aims of our bombing policy. They are not by-products of attempts to hit factories."

And, upon being stopped by a motorcyle policeman for speeding who then said to him "You might have killed someone, sir." Harris replied, "Young man, I kill thousands of people every night."

The first bombardier:

BBC News - Libya 1911: How an Italian pilot began the air war era

A widely-translated & influential doctrine:

The Command of the Air by Giulio Douhet : a Military Times Classic « Military History magazine | WW1, WW2, History of Aviation, Army & Naval Warfare

"No longer can areas exist in which life can be lived in safety and tranquillity, nor can the battlefield any longer be limited to actual combatants. On the contrary, the battlefield will be limited only by the boundaries of the nations at war, and all of their citizens will become combatants, since all of them will be exposed to the aerial offensives of the enemy."

And of course one cannot have a war without financing:

Link Removed

History (up to ~ the mid 20th century) taken to an illuminating depth of context not taught in many schools:

Tragedy & Hope - Carroll Quigley (Contents / Intro / Preface)

 

[knumbskull]

Im not bringing this up to argue the merits of the decision, but could not the dropping of the atomic bombs in Japan also have been construed, by the Japanese, as a terrorist act?

i wrote a long post about this, then deleted it.

EDIT ok... going to take some cool-off time

 

[MIJ-VI]

Unit 731

 

[Tupac]

I don't mean to sound racist, but if I was traveling on a plane of the 10 year anniversary of 9/11 and I saw two Middle-Eastern men using the bathroom in succession, I would be a little uneasy too.

I agree. Three (seemingly) Middle Eastern people sitting together, two of which were using the bathroom in succession, is kind of suspicious. This is an overreaction no doubt, but I mean, it's the 10th Anniversary of 9/11, they're not taking any chances. I just don't see why they couldn't just search their person if they were so worried, instead of spending hours investigating...

If a white male were detained for an hour, would there be a 4 page thread on the "injustice"?

Another interesting point.

 

[runmikeyrun]

True, but check the percentages. And I didn't mean to imply that all members of any religious group have a proclivity toward terrorism.

Well, let's see.

Muslim terrorist attacks:
9/11
DC sniper

Let's count the white terrorist attacks:

Oklahoma City Alfred P. Murrah Building
Unabomber
"Smiley face" bomber
Branch Davidian compound (not technically an attack, but they were terrorists in the making)
Dozens of abortion clinic bombings by Pro-Lifers
Olympic Park bombing @ Atlanta Olympics
Columbine High School

Can't think of any more ATM and i'm too lazy to google. So far I think the white Christians are "winning".

 

[Popbumper]

Well, let's see.

Muslim terrorist attacks:
9/11
DC sniper

Let's count the white terrorist attacks:

Oklahoma City Alfred P. Murrah Building
Unabomber
"Smiley face" bomber
Branch Davidian compound (not technically an attack, but they were terrorists in the making)
Dozens of abortion clinic bombings by Pro-Lifers
Olympic Park bombing @ Atlanta Olympics
Columbine High School

Can't think of any more ATM and i'm too lazy to google. So far I think the white Christians are "winning".

I love these well founded arguments!

Yeah, I can see your points...especially the ones about "white Christians". I mean, after all:

Dylan Klebold and his buddy were well known Christians, no doubt.....

Ted Kazynsky (sic), yup, big church goer there....

Olympic park bomber - yup, Sunday school attendee for sure....

Branch Davidian compound, terrorists in the making? Nuts, but not "incendiary shoe" wearers...

And your Google research? Lazy indeed. Yes, to the top of the list, please let me add "ATM":

The Lockerbie Scotland plane downing....

The Fort Hood Texas shooting....

Both NOT done by "white Christians".

Finally, let's do the math, lives lost. OK. 911 attacks - 3000alone. 'nuff said. Let's talk RAW LIVES lost around the world over the last twenty years alone and see where your argument goes.

If you are going to present an argument, try not to be so malinformed, slanted, and atrociously media-fed.

 

[BobWestbrook]

If you are going to present an argument, try not to be so malinformed, slanted, and atrociously media-fed.

+1

Run, Mikey, Run, towards reality.

 

[burk48237]

Well, let's see.

Muslim terrorist attacks:
9/11
DC sniper

Let's count the white terrorist attacks:

Oklahoma City Alfred P. Murrah Building
Unabomber
"Smiley face" bomber
Branch Davidian compound (not technically an attack, but they were terrorists in the making)
Dozens of abortion clinic bombings by Pro-Lifers
Olympic Park bombing @ Atlanta Olympics
Columbine High School

Can't think of any more ATM and i'm too lazy to google. So far I think the white Christians are "winning".

The sin of omission is a grave one my son. But you are right about one thing, you're to lazy to goggle.

Islam's totals for this month, 35 attacks with 159 dead and 253 injured. In 2011 alone radical Islam has accounted for 181 attacks with 787 dead and 1498 injured.

Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time

A few things you might have discovered with just a bit of research:

Since 9/11 more people have been killed by Islamic terrorist attacks than in the entire 350 year history of the Spanish inquisition.

Since 9/11 Islamic terrorists average more dead bodies per day than the KKK killed in the last 50 years.

I in no way fear Muslims, And a vast majority of Muslims are moderate and no threat to anyone. But no rational person could compare the violence of so-called Christian extremists of the last century to a good month for Islam. I say "so-called" because many like Mcveigh had no support within organized Christianity. There weren't Americans in the Bible Belt cheering at pentecostal churches after Oklahoma City. They just aren't comparable.

 

[Angus]

If you are going to present an argument, try not to be so malinformed, slanted, and atrociously media-fed.

Er, I would argue that "media-fed" would be more likely anti-muslim than anti-christian. Unless by "atrociously media-fed" you mean "not adequately media fed" or something.

And malinformed isn't a word.

I in no way fear Muslims, And a vast majority of Muslims are moderate and no threat to anyone. But no rational person could compare the violence of so-called Christian extremists of the last century to a good month for Islam. I say "so-called" because many like Mcveigh had no support within organized Christianity. There weren't Americans in the Bible Belt cheering at pentecostal churches after Oklahoma City. They just aren't comparable.

Yes but the same is true of radical Islam versus the average practitioner- the average (read: massive majority) of muslims don't support the extremists. You can't call Christian-tied terrorism "so-called Christian extremists" but call Islam-tied terrorism "Islam". Neither are desirable to the lay practitioner and in both cases represent a minor portion of the populations.

The problem in comparisons is cultural and national- you can't ignore the social context in, say, Iraq or Afghanistan compared to the US. That's not just down to religion, by any stretch of the imagination.

I'm not arguing that the quantity of violence is equal either way- just that people always want to pin it against the "other".

 

[Popbumper]

Er, I would argue that "media-fed" would be more likely anti-muslim than anti-christian. Unless by "atrociously media-fed" you mean "not adequately media fed" or something.

And malinformed isn't a word.

Since we're on the subject of Google, Google the word "malinformed" and see what you get. One iteration of it was used in a recent article published in Newsweek. Call Newsweek and let them know.

Argue as you will. "Atrociously media-fed" = anti-muslim? Are you kidding? The media dare say anything negative for fear of retaliation. But of course, "Christians" as a whole are regularly lambasted and made fun of, you know, under the guise of free speech, especially on television. Funny how Christians don't uprise and attack as a result - except according to Mikey up there.

 

[Popbumper]

The sin of omission is a grave one my son. But you are right about one thing, you're to lazy to goggle.

Islam's totals for this month, 35 attacks with 159 dead and 253 injured. In 2011 alone radical Islam has accounted for 181 attacks with 787 dead and 1498 injured.

Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time

A few things you might have discovered with just a bit of research:

Since 9/11 more people have been killed by Islamic terrorist attacks than in the entire 350 year history of the Spanish inquisition.

Since 9/11 Islamic terrorists average more dead bodies per day than the KKK killed in the last 50 years.

I in no way fear Muslims, And a vast majority of Muslims are moderate and no threat to anyone. But no rational person could compare the violence of so-called Christian extremists of the last century to a good month for Islam. I say "so-called" because many like Mcveigh had no support within organized Christianity. There weren't Americans in the Bible Belt cheering at pentecostal churches after Oklahoma City. They just aren't comparable.

+1000