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Double Bass Women in jazz

#24
Huy Nguyen said:
One feminist can't speak for all women. If your friend is seemingly correctly then women would not listen to classical and opera. We all know that's patently false.

I think you can add that women are drawn to many things passionate and how they perceive it. My wife doesn't like Coltrane, but she'll go for Paul Desmond. Heady busy jazz is discounted. She loves Monk and Mingus.

Most players and the way jazz is taught makes it to abstract and doesn't focus on emotion first. Perhaps women simply got bored with it after a certain age?
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Just last week on morning television I heard and saw Oprah Winfrey gush to Kelly Ripa: "I just discovered blues and jazz." To which Kelly replied "Oh. they're great aren't they?" When Ripa questioned her further about it, Oprah said she just never listened to them. I wasn't surprised. During my 33 years in public school systems, I very seldom met a teacher (and this includes music teachers) who had anything more than the most rudimental, Kenny G/Herb Alpert knowledge of jazz. What's more, I early learned, to my great surprise, that with a few exceptions, black teachers were just as ignorant as the whites. So my conclusion has been that there is no innate or genetic proclivity to either like or dislike jazz. It has to be passed down, learned, or (as in my case) simply and serendipitously stumbled upon. How this applies to women? I must admit that I never till now gave it a thought. In schools jazz may have been lumped in with those formerly " masculine" subjects like math, science, and wood shop. Those stigmas I am happy to say have changed.
One other thing I've found: Women generally prefer vocal rather than instrumental jazz.
 
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#25
On the vocal jazz issue: It's not just women that prefer vocal jazz. A great singer is a gateway into making any kind of music accessible, inviting people into a song on a level that everyone can understand. Some will venture deeper into the details of the instrumental fabric, and some will not, and that's as should be. But every time I hear a great singer give their take on a great melody I am drawn in, and what happens directly after has my direct attention as long as it can keep it.

Why? Because songs with lyrics are stories that set a mood on a level that can not be told with an instrument on that same level unless the listener already knows the lyrics and associates them with the melody. In some cases, a truly great instrumental voice can portray a melody that is as compelling as a great vocal version (I think of unique voices like Miles Davis, Frank Morgan, and Joe Henderson here), but too often in what we now call "jazz" the melody has become this perfunctory thing that players slog through to get to the place where they get to noodle over the changes. I personally don't like this paradigm of playing "jazz" because IMO it has things totally backwards. The melody is not only the frame around the picture, it also sets the outline of the image itself; the instrumental orchestration is the detail of that image. Great players fill out the image in high resolution with millions of colors.

We all strive to be great players with unique voices. But in my opinion, a "good" singer speaks much more directly to an average person that a "good" instrumentalist because the listener is given a way to relate to the music that does not rely as much on abstraction. Once they have begun to relate to the music on that extra lyrical/story level, they are more likely to appreciate the abstraction that follows.

Back to women in music (not just jazz), my favorite living distinct and beautiful voice - whether vocal or instrumental - belongs to none other that Bonnie Raitt... neither a man nor a jazz musician. She could sing "Happy Birthday" and make me cry. Her ability to transform simple melodies into powerful statements that stick just with the subtleties of tone and control of her voice has given me a greater appreciation for the possibilities of any melody to rise to a higher level if only enough attention were paid to it. It reminds me of the first time I heard Jessye Norman sing Mahler songs; my eyes were suddenly opened to that music, and once opened, they will never close again.

EDIT: and as an aside, whenever I hear anyone here on talkbass bagging on Tal Wilkenfeld's playing, my eyes roll immediately heavenward. Like her style or not, that young woman can flat out play, IMO.
 
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#26
Chris Fitzgerald said:
On the vocal jazz issue: It's not just women that prefer vocal jazz. A great singer is a gateway into making any kind of music accessible, inviting people into a song on a level that everyone can understand.

We all strive to be great players with unique voices. But in my opinion, a "good" singer speaks much more directly to an average person that a "good" instrumentalist because the listener is given a way to relate to the music that does not rely as much on abstraction. Once they have begun to relate to the music on that extra lyrical/story level, they are more likely to appreciate the abstraction that follows.
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I agree with the above if you substitute "any" for "great" and "good" singers. People, men and women, relate more quickly to words--period. How many times have you heard: " I can't hear the melody?
Learning to "hear" jazz is like learning another language.



Chris,
I agree with most of what you wrote, but my intent was not to discuss the quality of jazz vocalists. I belong to the Lester Young school of silently "singing" the lyrics of a tune (if there are any) as I'm playing it. (I also sing on gigs when I have to :) However, I stand by my opinion that women players are more drawn towards vocal jazz than instrumental.

During the 60's and 70's in NYC, I always kidded with my wife, Judy Lincoln, also a vocalist, that the chick piano players in this town treat me like a towel in the way they pass me around. Much of my career was backing female singers (there were males too. Bobby Cole and Reg Wilson for example) in a piano trio setting. I think part of my success with the gals was that the word got out that I was dependable and wouldn't try to nail them.
The following is a quick list that comes to mind:

Karen Springer
Suzanne Forham
Daryl Sherman
Nina Sheldon (backing Johnny Hartman)
Jane Getz (AA Friday night get togethers in a village church basement)
Joanne Brackeen (same AA gig)
Many more that I forget.

All of these ladies except Joanne and Jane were vocalists; it's what got them the work, and they loved doing it.
Jane was kind of quiet, shy even, but Joanne was a dynamo. She had so many ideas that she tripped over them. Her mind seemed to be going much faster than her hands. I was so happy when I heard she got it all together with the Getz gig.

Straying here. Sorry.

One more thing, jazz in the olden days was a rough often brutal life. One nighters very far apart, lousy hotel rooms and lousy food. A lot of boozing. Always feeling sweaty and grimy. And most of all --dangerous. Think Doug Watkins, Clifford and Ritchie and of course Scotty. It wasn't very appealing to most women. Hell, it wasn't appealing to me.[/QUOTE]
 
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#30
Chris Fitzgerald said:
On the vocal jazz issue: It's not just women that prefer vocal jazz. A great singer is a gateway into making any kind of music accessible, inviting people into a song on a level that everyone can understand.
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Chris, That's the reason I really only look to play with singers now and that is what I'm doing.


EDIT: and as an aside, whenever I hear anyone here on talkbass bagging on Tal Wilkenfeld's playing, my eyes roll immediately heavenward. Like her style or not, that young woman can flat out play, IMO.
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Chris,
This was a Joke.... a joke. I like Tal.. but didn't you find it funny everybody is naming Female players and didn't mention Tal at all.. that is what I had a good laugh at.. a joke people.. a joke.. :thumbsup:

Joshua said:
Amen.
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Joshua, a joke man. I like Tal. (more for her looks though.. ha.)

Quick question- I'll take a bet you aren't listening to her (transformation) CD over and over again like your other Cd collections and "bass players" you like.. are you? Just asking.


Chris Fitzgerald said:
Of course, how could I forget Joanne Brackeen? I played a concert with her back in 2008. Definitely a dynamo, and definitely a unique voice on the piano.
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She was teaching piano at Berklee and I think still is, I actually couldn't play with her when I tried because she was sooo into some new contemporary sound that I didn't and couldn't understand especially cause I was around 20-21 years old which was when I was at Berklee.

-So this is a concert she had at Berklee you may find funny, and shows what women can bring to entertainment - Joanne Brackeen and this other "Female" piano player named Suzanne Davis (who I know very well) Stephany Tiernan and they have somewhat similar figures. So they put on this Dueling Piano concert. but the stage was set - 2 Grand Pianos facing each other and they both walked out wearing the same black dress and hat and gloves and everything.. they walked slowly at the same time from opposite sides of the stage mirroring every move they did with each other.. It was hilarious and they played the concert both dressed up the same and you couldn't tell which one was which. it was quite funny. I'm sure they recorded it and maybe I can find it on Youtube.

women are very funny and entertaining as well in Jazz.
 
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#34
I don't think anyone has asserted that "women don't play jazz," that's not the thesis. All the great examples of women players are really beside the point that there are far fewer women than men in jazz, and I think we should be careful to avoid complacency about it, particularly in teaching, where we have the best opportunity to help young players find their voices.
 
#36
ok.. so what was the point? There are plenty of women in the history of jazz and today there is plenty of women thriving in jazz..

was it more difficult for women to get into jazz in the past.. maybe.. and today.. yes maybe.. but so what? look at how many women there are in music period.

so what was the point again?
 
#37
bassfacer22 said:
hello... hello...

has anybody seen the amount of Asian women who love and listen and play jazz? hellooo..

just search any jazz concert in Japan...
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Have you seen this?
It talks about,in part,the difference between Japanese jazz audiences and american music preferences.
Why Americans don't like Jazz.
 
#38
bassfacer22 said:
ok.. so what was the point? There are plenty of women in the history of jazz and today there is plenty of women thriving in jazz..

was it more difficult for women to get into jazz in the past.. maybe.. and today.. yes maybe.. but so what? look at how many women there are in music period.

so what was the point again?
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The original post has a link to an article that is making the point that the "Gender Imbalance" in Jazz Education, might be the result of "Gender Bias".
This thread has derailed (a bit) into a discussion citing women who DO play, or HAVE played jazz.
There's the point.
Also - I'm not sure that you've chosen your words very carefully here:
"and today there is plenty of women thriving in jazz.."
IMO.
 
#40
bassfacer22 said:
ok. "today there are plenty of women thriving in Jazz, both in Concerts and in the educational system."

but yes I"m sure this has derailed..

the same could be said for any style of music and any ethnicity as well.. so it's just fodder.. "pointless: article with no resolution or anything to take away..
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OK. I understand your position.
Buh Bye.
 

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