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Double Bass Women in jazz

#3
Can't say nothin' 'bout the college situation, but among the persons I associate with in New York, I find myself playing more often with women than I do people of color. I'm not entirely sure why this is. From personal experience, I know of no one who makes distinctions of any kind beyond whether or not a person can play. I feel fortunate in this regard. But I also know that the rest of the world is not New York, which is why I live here....
 
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#4
That blog post has been making it's rounds. Remember, it's just a paper written for a class - it's still opinion with some fact mixed in. Still there is some truth in it. It's gonna be different depending on locale (the author is in Australia).

As in many other domains, lack of role models is certainly a problem and a result of history, esp during the golden age of Jazz where there's a lot of tribal behavior (vining, cutting, sexism, etc. all running rampant). I think we're at the cusp of a lot of change only start to see it with the millennial generation. Even then it's not going to come overnight. I see it in the software engineering field - but it's still gradual and yet to be see if the trend tapers off.

I don't think it's any one thing and this kind of thing happens a lot in public health where so many things are intertwined.
Is it:
* Lack of role models?
* Lack of opportunities to play locally?
* Lack of a nurturing environment conducive to keep women playing better?
* Why doesn't the interest last? Does jazz suck after a certain age?
* Economics? Jazz does not generally pay a living wage to raise a child.
* Cultural/social issues?
etc.

Lets also not forget that jazz was once associated with the underbelly of society. And hell, it's already hard enough to keep people interested in jazz in general, much less keeping women playing in the style.

Lots and lots of questions.

OTOH, the number of role models coming on line now is encouraging. Esperanza, Linda Oh, Grace Kelly, Hiromi, etc. and then lets not forget all the not so well known musicians doing it. There are quite a few female jazz musicians here in the bay area, certainly they're outnumbered but it doesn't seem small to me.
 
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#6
The thesis -- that there are many societal factors that steer women away from jazz -- seems fairly solid to me, and fits with my experience. Schools could be looking for more women instructors to improve role-modeling, but that's probably related to the number of women getting through the program in the first place. There's one the author didn't mention that occurs to me, and that's a reluctance to bring a woman into an ensemble as a regular to avoid sexual tension and dynamics within the group. Like racism, this obviously this isn't a problem for all male musicians and it's likely fading away among younger players, but it has certainly been a factor at least sometimes in my generation.

Taking that another step, soloists in the rock-jazz-blues world are usually sexualized as part of the marketing -- that's why they wanted Anita to wear the gown -- and that won't be a comfortable situation for a lot of women.
 
#7
When I go to jazz festivals, there is often a long line for the men's bathroom, with no lines at all for the women's room. Many women love to make comments on how nice that reversal is. But it points to a simple fact: jazz is not as popular with female listeners as it is with male listeners. So why should we be surprised to see female musicians eschewing it as well?

The article really gets to the point right here, IMO: "I asked a jazz teacher once why he thought there was such an imbalance. He thought for a moment and said, 'Well, jazz is a bit of blokey art form'." Let's face it: it's kind of an egotistical art form (I love jazz, but still). I can imagine women being put off by what they may perceive as a bunch of macho posturing.

I had a GF years ago who identified as a feminist. She once told me that if I wanted my music to appeal to women, I had to aim for their hips. She stated that men like to listen to music, but women prefer to dance to it. I don't know if it's true or not; it seems like a bit too much of a generalization. I do know that when I went to see Medeski, Martin, and Wood a few years ago, every time they would get more abstract, the women in the audience would start talking to each other. Then the band would hit a groove, and the women would stop talking and start dancing.

The idea that certain instruments are perceived as masculine or feminine, and that jazz favors "masculine" instruments, doesn't really hold water for me. I mean, the author characterizes the piano as feminine. Is there any more widely-accepted instrument in jazz? Also, I'd argue that violin and flute (allegedly feminine) are at least as well-accepted in trad jazz circles as the guitar (allegedly masculine).
 
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#8
One feminist can't speak for all women. If your friend is seemingly correctly then women would not listen to classical and opera. We all know that's patently false.

I think you can add that women are drawn to many things passionate and how they perceive it. My wife doesn't like Coltrane, but she'll go for Paul Desmond. Heady busy jazz is discounted. She loves Monk and Mingus.

Most players and the way jazz is taught makes it to abstract and doesn't focus on emotion first. Perhaps women simply got bored with it after a certain age?
 
#10
two of my jazz heroes are Sarah Vaughan and Ella Fitzgerald. They stepped up and could cut it with the top horn players of the time. Listen to Ella doing How High the Moon ... she has various sax solos in her head. And as to Sarah, there's this -


Vaughan spent the remainder of 1943 and part of 1944 touring the country with the Earl Hines big band that featured baritone Billy Eckstine. Vaughan was hired as a pianist, reputedly so Hines could hire her under the jurisdiction of the musicians' union (American Federation of Musicians) rather than the singers union (American Guild of Variety Artists), but after Cliff Smallsjoined the band as a trombonist and pianist, Sarah's duties became limited exclusively to singing. The Earl Hines band in this period is remembered as an incubator of bebop, as it included trumpeter Dizzy Gillespie, saxophonist Charlie Parker (playing tenor rather than his more usual alto saxophone) and trombonist Bennie Green. Gillespie arranged for the band, although thecontemporary recording ban by the musicians' union means there is no aural evidence in the form of commercial records.

Eckstine left the Hines band in late 1943 and formed his own big band with Gillespie, leaving Hines to become the new band's musical director. Parker came along too, and the Eckstine band over the next few years would host a startling cast of jazz talent: Miles Davis, Kenny Dorham, Invalid Link Removed, Lucky Thompson, Gene Ammons, and Dexter Gordon, among others.
 
#11
This quote by Camille Paglia has always stayed with me - she was observing and discussing (I believe), what she believed to be inherent differences between the human Male and Female, especially regarding a type of (unhealthy?) Male Obsession (often missing in the Female), that may enable extraordinary (Male) acts of creation or destruction.
"There is no female Mozart because there is no female Jack the Ripper."
(NOTE: this quote is taken out of context from her many writings, and you might be surprised to discover what her broader view is of the "Male/Female" dynamic. I'm not sure I agree with her, (or understand her), on many points, but her writing is thought provoking, to say the least. She is a Feminist whose views have been rejected by many mainstream Feminists!)
Thanks.
 
#12
Paglia is definitely a thought provoking character. I like some things she says because they are not filtered by political correctness. I dislike others because they feel like iconoclasm for the sake of iconoclasm. But she makes you think, which is more than I can say about many academic writers. I don't know the answer to the questions posed by this thread, (as Paglia once wrote, " "We are merely one of a multitude of species upon which nature indiscriminately exerts its force. Nature has a master agenda we can only dimly know."), but I do know that as an educator I look up from my desk/bass every day at work and see young people eager for me to help them better understand something that fascinates them. I try to do that regardless of gender.

In my traditional theory classes, the ratio is balanced around 66% to 33% in favor of women, largely because our school has so many voice and music therapy majors. In my jazz bass studio, of the six students, two are female, which for jazz is not a bad ratio. in the larger jazz area, of some 40 or so students I count 8 females, or about 20%.
 
#13
I don't know. Been thinking the opposite lately. If you watch the local scenes, i.e. NYC like Smallslive on jam nights there are a slew of 20 something women horns players (esp sax) and there is a always a healthy showing at piano thru the week. Jazz has always been predominately male so I was encouraged to see all the young women playing so well.
 
#14
Women are into jazz, I'm not sure what was the point here again.. They do play jazz, take a look at all the female artists that have been around in history as well as emerging.

When I went to Berklee College of Music, every group I played I had women in it. Whether it was saxophones or singers to piano players and vibe or marimba..

Grace Kelly, Diana Krall, Esperanza Spalding (was in class at Berklee with her), Mindi Abair, I could go on forever..
 
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#15
We should not forget that 'mass culture' is a market driven thing. People get big/famous because they are attractive with what they 'stand for'.

It is pivot to create an 'image' following and/or contradicting the myths of the genre you are throwing yourself in. We all know about the 'values' of the role models in jazz. It is all about the narratives and how they are accomplished, expectations feed by individuals the best they can. Could all male icons of jazz have been also female? I'd dare to question that. And I also wonder why this would have been a good thing.

(Saying this with, ehem, Marx:) Making art is the result of a struggle in a certain time that reflects the status quo / the longings of the maker. Men or woman. And so the statement should make a difference.

Giving that there is a 'truth factor' in artistic production, which is hard to see because of all the statistics telling the market value (where the article of the OP falls into; quantities are not qualities), I would love to see and hear more woman telling a different story, one that is not about fulfilling males fantasies but making their own points.

Where are the Nina Simones and Billie Holidays (both victims of the 'male power system' they needed to anchor into for economic survival) today speaking up, accusing, strongly with their voice.

Oh, and where is the female quote on TB, arguing here about all this?
 
#17
bassfacer22 said:
they aren't ready yet because they had to put on more eye makeup and dry their hair before they step in front of men to listen to them..

haha
Click to expand...

Look, nothing personal, but these kind of 'bold statements' are the only valid reason for threads like that exist.

Now: go back to your corner and contemplate about what you just said ... And write 100x "I am not a smarter person, because I have an attached penis onto my lower front" at that very wall next to you.

In the meanwhile we all are waiting for constructive comments. And you: watch and listen, and maybe you learn something about the real world that *is* existing outside of your way of dealing with perceptions of that very same.
 
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#18
Way to take a joke..

and nothing personal, but are you a singer perhaps? o_O


Meanwhile I'm going to listen to this girl because of the bass she is playing...





girlbass.JPG
 

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