Wood Matters Club!!!

[eqvolvorama]

THAT was pure snake-oil. Sorry, but for a buck or two, most anyone will say anything and let a company print it. Even I would. If one of those companies wants me to give them a quote for one of their BS ads, tell 'em to get their check book out, and make sure there are at least 4 digits to the left of the decimal point, they can quote me 'til the cows come home. That or give me a couple dozen of their garbage garden variety power cables, and I'll sell 'em.

Totally agree here. I don't know anything about the Tara blind test, but DO recall hearing about a cable blind test in the 1980s that "cheated" by "allowing" the proctor to bump the volume level of material through the preferred cable by 1-2db. Basically, each channel had a separate volume knob. If the proctor wants to push things his or her way, it would take about 30 minutes of practice to realize how to do just that.

With that kind of bias, it'd be surprising if people DIDN'T prefer the slightly louder signal. Not casting specific doubt on the Tara test, but shenanigans have existed and will continue to exist. Snake oil salesman walk among us.

Will also agree with Dan that sighted tests are pretty much useless for drawing any conclusions about anything. Expectation bias is real, and all of us are subject to it. It doesn't mean we're idiots - it means we're human, and in a battle for control of our perceptions, our preconceived notions will trounce our ears and eyes every single time. Experience and subject matter expertise, at any level, will never overcome the need to do things blind.

 

[-=DanAtkinson=-]

Going back to the WOOD question, because that's what we're talking about here, right? When ALL VARIABLES are the same, EXCEPT the wood, in a controlled situation which is the same every time, I can hear a difference, everyone in this shop can hear a difference. Even if a Tara Labs (or other snake-oil audio company) cable is in the mix.

Agreed.

But let's say you had one bass, a Jazz bass, you had a limited budget, and you wanted to tweak your tone. Maybe you wanted to give it more high end "clarity", or you wanted to make it more "punchy", whatever. If you could only make one change, what would you change? What would have the most significant impact on your tone?

Would you change pickups? Like maybe go with split-coils if you had single-coils (or vice versa).

Would you change strings? Like maybe go with steel rounds as opposed to nickel, or maybe go with flats as opposed to rounds.

Would you change body wood? Like maybe go from Ash to Mahogany. Or Alder to Maple.

Would you change the fretboard wood?

Etc.

 

[Gard]

Agreed.

But let's say you had one bass, a Jazz bass, you had a limited budget, and you wanted to tweak your tone. Maybe you wanted to give it more high end "clarity", or you wanted to make it more "punchy", whatever. If you could only make one change, what would you change? What would have the most significant impact on your tone?

Would you change pickups? Like maybe go with split-coils if you had single-coils (or vice versa).

Would you change strings? Like maybe go with steel rounds as opposed to nickel, or maybe go with flats as opposed to rounds.

Would you change body wood? Like maybe go from Ash to Mahogany. Or Alder to Maple.

Would you change the fretboard wood?

Etc.

Dan. :scowl:

Silly question - you cannot change ANYTHING other than the electronics or strings without a major investment of time and money. If you change any of the woods, you've essentially got a different bass, entirely!

EDIT: To answer your actual, viable question, on an existing bass guitar what would I change? The pickups. However, that does not in any way remove the fact that the WOODS are even more important, because the pickups are merely "re-interpreting" what the woods are "saying". In other words, the basic tone/timbre of the bass in question is PRIMARILY (in the sense that it is the FIRST aspect of the instrument that affects tone, as well as being the most important one) the woods and how they are used.

 

[Gard]

Wow. Can't argue with those credentials.

Not trying to win anything via "argument from authority" here, just sharing my experiences, really.

 

[-=DanAtkinson=-]

Dan. :scowl:

Silly question - you cannot change ANYTHING other than the electronics or strings without a major investment of time and money. If you change any of the woods, you've essentially got a different bass, entirely!

So, yes, to alter the tone of an EXISTING bass guitar, changing the preamp or pickups would be the OBVIOUS (as in DUH! obvious) choice.

Not a good argument, sorry brother.

It seems the art of proper communication is on the decline.

At no point did I make an "argument". I asked a question. I am seeking a respectful exchange of information and ideas. Nothing more. No need to get defensive.

Now, back to my question. It's hypothetical. Take time and money out of the equation. Let's forget I said "limited budget". Let's just say you can change one thing, and one thing only. What would you change?

There is no right or wrong answer.

 

[Gard]

It seems the art of proper communication is on the decline.

At no point did I "make an argument". I asked a question. I am seeking a respectful exchange of information and ideas. Nothing more. No need to get defensive.

Now, back to my question. It's hypothetical. Take time and money out of the equation. Let's forget I said "limited budget". Let's just say you can change one thing, and one thing only. What would you change?

There is no right or wrong answer.

Sorry, I edited after you quoted, to be more clear in my reply.

Not being defensive, you were throwing up a straw man argument, IMO, and I was pointing it out.

If you have unlimited budget and time, my answer changes: woods. However, you are no longer changing the tone of THAT bass, but creating a totally different one to use with a tone that closer approaches your goal.

 

[Back2Bassics]

To answer Dan: pickups/electronics.

It's easy and it impacts your sound in a huge way. There's a million ways to change electronics - caps/pots/preamps, etc, and nearly all will make a large NOTICEABLE difference. I'd almost argue that with properly designed electronics, you could make a bass sound like anything you wanted, regardless of wood.

I honestly believe wood does matter, but so does everything else.

 

[-=DanAtkinson=-]

Sorry, I edited after you quoted, to be more clear in my reply.

Not being defensive, you were throwing up a straw man argument, IMO, and I was pointing it out.

If you have unlimited budget and time, my answer changes: woods. However, you are no longer changing the tone of THAT bass, but creating a totally different one to use with a tone that closer approaches your goal.

Again, at no point did I present an "argument" of any kind. How is asking a hypothetical question an argument? I was simply interested in your thoughts on the subject. Don't be so jumpy.

Now, back to your answer. You said you would change "woods". Which one? Body or fretboard? Again, no right or wrong answer.

(And whether or not you are changing the tone of THAT bass, or creating a "different" bass... that's semantics. There is no way we could collectively agree on a a specific point at which mods to your bass officially make it into a "different" bass. If you change the pickguard, is it still the same bass? How about if you change the pickups, bridge, and pickguard? Etc.)

 

[Gard]

Again, at no point did I present an "argument" of any kind. How is asking a hypothetical question an argument? I was simply interested in your thoughts on the subject. Don't be so jumpy.

Now, back to your answer. You said you would change "woods". Which one? Body or fretboard? Again, no right or wrong answer.

(And whether or not you are changing the tone of THAT bass, or creating a "different" bass... that's semantics. There is no way we could collectively agree on a a specific point at which mods to your bass officially make it into a "different" bass. If you change the pickguard, is it still the same bass? How about if you change the pickups, bridge, and pickguard? Etc.)

If you change the body woods, you really want to call it the "same bass"?



...talk about "semantics"!

Have a nice day.

 

[-=DanAtkinson=-]

If you change the body woods, you really want to call it the "same bass"?



...talk about "semantics"!

Have a nice day.

Well, I guess it's clear that you aren't interested in productive communication. I'll stop.

 

[Gard]

Well, I guess it's clear that you aren't interested in productive communication. I'll stop.

No, I'm just disinterested in circular logic arguments (no matter how you phrase them, or how you name them).



Good day, sir!

 

[-=DanAtkinson=-]

To answer Dan: pickups/electronics.

It's easy and it impacts your sound in a huge way. There's a million ways to change electronics - caps/pots/preamps, etc, and nearly all will make a large NOTICEABLE difference. I'd almost argue that with properly designed electronics, you could make a bass sound like anything you wanted, regardless of wood.

I honestly believe wood does matter, but so does everything else.

This is how you answer a question. He answered the question, explained the reasoning behind his answer, and didn't call the question "silly" or post icons.

Anybody elese want to chime in? Again, there is no right or wrong answer. Just interested in exchanging opinions.

(Personally I would go with electronics, as I've found the biggest WOW factor from changing that vs. other elements.)

 

[J.Wolf]

I was lured into this thread by "d'uh logic" (If you can't tell that different types of wood, or different varieties of the same wood type have a direct effect on the tone of your instrument, then there's just a plain old deficit in the sensitivity of your perception)...

And then I saw the part about the high end IEC cable, and I had to stop and wonder... What does this logic says about me, as a reviewer who wasn't paid a dime by ESP, but clearly perceived a difference in tone and response with their power cable, in certain applications?

I see the same types of arguments crop up again and again on TB, ones that usually are distilled to two clear camps. The engineers/scientists, vs the players. Whats interesting is that the EE's dont need to experientially try out the product to know that they must be right, that it can't possibly work, and so why waste time trying it out, vs the players who typically need no scientific data to back up their "I know what I heard regardless of what your spec sheet says" type response. It reminds me a little bit of the 'beat your head against a friggin wall' back and forth of partisan politics.

Sorry, I have very little to add to this thread other than, "are you kidding me? How is this question even on the table?".

 

[-=DanAtkinson=-]

No, I'm just disinterested in circular logic arguments (no matter how you phrase them, or how you name them).

What was my argument?

 

[Gard]

Yeah, that pretty much sums up my feelings right now.

 

[mongo2]

What was my argument?

This thread isn't about you, it's about wood. Please try to keep on topic.

 

[Gard]

Heya Jake!

Sorry, I have very little to add to this thread other than, "are you kidding me? How is this question even on the table?".

Good point...I'm kinda done, I don't like being punished for sharing experience.

(And yes, under CERTAIN conditions, I think you might hear something with an IEC cable, but under "real life" ones, meh.)

 

[-=DanAtkinson=-]

This thread isn't about you, it's about wood. Please try to keep on topic.

That's exactly what I was doing. I asked a simple, hypothetical question that involved wood. I was then accused of "making an argument". So I asked what the argument was.

I was trying to establish a productive, respectful exchange of ideas with you guys. I guess that was too much to hope for. Your strange emotional reactions to this topic just can't be overcome.

How bad are your insecurities when a discussion about wood tone gets you so tied up in knots?? Bizarre.

 

[mongo2]

That's exactly what I was doing. I asked a simple, hypothetical question that involved wood. I was then accused of "making an argument". So I asked what the argument was.

I was trying to establish a productive, respectful exhchange of ideas with you guys. I guess that was too much to hope for. Your strange emotional reactions to this topic just can't be overcome.

How bad are your insecurities when a discussion about wood tone gets you so tied up in knots?? Bizarre.

Still off topic.

 

[eqvolvorama]

And then I saw the part about the high end IEC cable, and I had to stop and wonder... What does this logic says about me, as a reviewer who wasn't paid a dime by ESP, but clearly perceived a difference in tone and response with their power cable, in certain applications?

I see the same types of arguments crop up again and again on TB, ones that usually are distilled to two clear camps. The engineers/scientists, vs the players. Whats interesting is that the EE's dont need to experientially try out the product to know that they must be right, that it can't possibly work, and so why waste time trying it out, vs the players who typically need no scientific data to back up their "I know what I heard regardless of what your spec sheet says" type response. It reminds me a little bit of the 'beat your head against a friggin wall' back and forth of partisan politics.

Sorry, I have very little to add to this thread other than, "are you kidding me? How is this question even on the table?".

While I agree that arguments like this are too-common and pointless when it comes to changing the minds of the participants, it's the lurkers reading the thread and not stepping in who are the real target audience.

And as someone who, albeit with limited education, probably end up in the "engineer/scientist" camp above, I think you misunderstand our position. We don't ever say "we don't need to try out the product." We demand it. We demand that others do it, in the right testing environments, to deliniate what is real and what is subjective and/or a function of placebo effect. Just saying "my spec sheet doesn't suggest there should be a difference, so there isn't" should never be enough. Neither should "I know what I hear."

As far as the ESP power cable is concerned, I don't doubt you heard a difference, but would bet you $40,000 that if you tested yourself in the right BLIND environment, where your eyes and expectations were forbidden from taking part in the process, you would hear no difference whatsoever. I'm not suggesting anything about you - I'd do the same thing - it's just that we can't expect any SIGHTED evaluation process to produce scientifically valid or objective conclusions.