Wood Matters Club!!!

[-=DanAtkinson=-]

I'm not suggesting anything about you - I'd do the same thing - it's just that we can't expect any SIGHTED evaluation process to produce scientifically valid or objective conclusions.

So true.

Reminds me of the time I was working at a studio in Atlanta and we decided to test a $30 ART preamp against a $2300 Great River preamp. We recorded a 3-track song on each, then sat back and listened to each mix (in a proper studio with good monitors).

At first, we both "heard" a difference. We were alternately clicking on the 2 different file names, and we knew what we were listening to. We heard the Great River as sounding "better". Then we renamed the files as gibberish so we didn't know which was which. On subsequent listening, we both had to admit the difference we had just heard was gone.

Here's a thread I posted with the audio clips: Invalid Link Removed

 

[mongo2]

it's just that we can't expect any SIGHTED evaluation process to produce scientifically valid or objective conclusions.

Nor would we expect any comparison test with a sample size of precisely 1 comparison to produce valid or objective conclusions.

 

[GBassNorth]

Agreed.

But let's say you had one bass, a Jazz bass, you had a limited budget, and you wanted to tweak your tone. Maybe you wanted to give it more high end "clarity", or you wanted to make it more "punchy", whatever. If you could only make one change, what would you change? What would have the most significant impact on your tone?

Would you change pickups? Like maybe go with split-coils if you had single-coils (or vice versa).

Would you change strings? Like maybe go with steel rounds as opposed to nickel, or maybe go with flats as opposed to rounds.

Would you change body wood? Like maybe go from Ash to Mahogany. Or Alder to Maple.

Would you change the fretboard wood?

Etc.

Dan - this is really a bogus question and once again underscores your continued flawed logic process. The effect you imply is not any confirmation of the cause.

Said another way, the relative ease and significantly reduced cost of changing out a pickup vs throwing away a $1000 piece of wood in no way underscores your position that wood has any more or less impact on the tone than the pickups. It may or it may not depending on a lot of factors. In fact I would counter that any decision to change out the pickup vs the wood is largely a function of ease and cost.

Look at my earlier post on this thread about my very real experiences in locking in on a pickup brand, configuration and locations, preamp type, bridge type and string selection.

I routed the heck out of a test mule bass to allow every kind of pickup configuration in every imaginable location possible and drilled holes all over the place to fit different bridges etc. Then once I figured I had it all sorted out on the test mule bass I moved the EXACT (and I do mean exact) components into my final bass body/neck which was a different body, neck and fb wood than the test mule.

The sound was very different and not what I was expecting at all, since I was in the "wood really doesn't make that much difference" camp at the time. It would have been cheaper and easier for me to stick to the identical woods used in the test mule but I made the HUGE mistake of listening to others on this site that have no concept of how much difference wood can make. I ended up altering the strings, frets and nut to different materials to help compensate for the tone I lost in the body woods.

So to answer your question - would you replace the wood or the electronics. I replaced the woods (test mule vs finished bass) and was shocked how much difference it made.

Another data point for you - I bought a G&L 2500 tribute bass some time ago via mail order. Upon arrival I wasn't fond of the tone of the bass, pickups were way to hot, too brite, too much top end. It had a maple neck and fb and swampash body. I thought about changing the pickups (for about 3 seconds) then came to the conclusion that's too much of the look and feel of a G&L and same with the preamp. So I looked into swapping out the maple/maple neck with a rosewood/rosewood neck with nickel frets but couldn't find a neck supplier that would fit the G&L. So, I sold the bass and bought a Stingray with a rosewood board, all is good now.

Yes, Wood Matters. Apparently a lot more than some (including myself) would have thought.

 

[-=DanAtkinson=-]

Dan - this is really a bogus question and once again underscores your continued flawed logic process. The effect you imply is not any confirmation of the cause.

Said another way, the relative ease and significantly reduced cost of changing out a pickup vs throwing away a $1000 piece of wood in no way underscores your position that wood has any more or less impact on the tone than the pickups. It may or it may not depending on a lot of factors. In fact I would counter that any decision to change out the pickup vs the wood is largely a function of ease and cost.

Look at my earlier post on this thread about my very real experiences in locking in on a pickup brand, configuration and locations, preamp type, bridge type and string selection.

I routed the heck out of a test mule bass to allow every kind of pickup configuration in every imaginable location possible and drilled holes all over the place to fit different bridges etc. Then once I figured I had it all sorted out on the test mule bass I moved the EXACT (and I do mean exact) components into my final bass body/neck which was a different body, neck and fb wood than the test mule.

The sound was very different and not what I was expecting at all, since I was in the "wood really doesn't make that much difference" camp at the time. It would have been cheaper and easier for me to stick to the identical woods used in the test mule but I made the HUGE mistake of listening to others on this site that have no concept of how much difference wood can make. I ended up altering the strings, frets and nut to different materials to help compensate for the tone I lost in the body woods.

So to answer your question - would you replace the wood or the electronics. I replaced the woods (test mule vs finished bass) and was shocked how much difference it made.

Another data point for you - I bought a G&L 2500 tribute bass some time ago via mail order. Upon arrival I wasn't fond of the tone of the bass, pickups were way to hot, too brite, too much top end. It had a maple neck and fb and swampash body. I thought about changing the pickups (for about 3 seconds) then came to the conclusion that's too much of the look and feel of a G&L and same with the preamp. So I looked into swapping out the maple/maple neck with a rosewood/rosewood neck with nickel frets but couldn't find a neck supplier that would fit the G&L. So, I sold the bass and bought a Stingray with a rosewood board, all is good now.

Yes, Wood Matters. Apparently a lot more than some (including myself) would have thought.

Sigh. Again (I feel like a broken record), I simply asked a hypothetical question. I did not use any "logic" nor did I "imply" anything.

Also, I later said time and money wasn't a factor in the hypothetical scenario.

Anyway, you kind of answered the question, but not really. If you could only make one change, would you change body or fretboard wood?

No right or wrong answer.

 

[mongo2]

If you could only make one change, would you change body or fretboard wood?

I'd change the neck. Not specifically the fretboard wood, the entire neck.

 

[aborgman]

Did the Tara Labs power cord/speaker cable/guitar cable test, double blind at Bass Central with a co-worker about what...7-8 years ago now.



THAT was pure snake-oil.

Actually instrument cables CAN make a difference... especially when being driven by passive pickups.

Power or speaker cables? Nope, not unless the control is under sized.

 

[aborgman]

Whats interesting is that the EE's dont need to experientially try out the product to know that they must be right, that it can't possibly work, and so why waste time trying it out, vs the players who typically need no scientific data to back up their "I know what I heard regardless of what your spec sheet says" type response.

I think this has something to do with most EE's having a good grasp of the actual physics involved and what they imply.

If you tell me you saw a ball roll up hill under its own power, I don't need to do an experiment to know you didn't see what you think you saw.

 

[J.Wolf]

I think this has something to do with most EE's having a good grasp of the actual physics involved and what they imply.

If you tell me you saw a ball roll up hill under its own power, I don't need to do an experiment to know you didn't see what you think you saw.

and around and around we go...


The best part for me of testing the IEC cable was that several of my buddies who somewhat resemble your stance on this issue didn't think there was any way it could make a difference. I loaned to each of them for a few weeks, and at the end was struck by 2 things: 1, they never once plugged it in to try it. and 2, they unflinchingly maintained that it could never work. I just thought that was an interesting example of the scientific mind at work.

just sayin.. I'm not gonna go down this rabbit hole any farther here, out of respect to topic at hand.. what was that anyways? Oh yeah, wood matters

 

[GBassNorth]

Sigh. Again (I feel like a broken record), I simply asked a hypothetical question. I did not use any "logic" nor did I "imply" anything.

Also, I later said time and money wasn't a factor in the hypothetical scenario.

Anyway, you kind of answered the question, but not really. If you could only make one change, would you change body or fretboard wood?

No right or wrong answer.

Dan - you clearly have an agenda - by your own admission - "Wood doesn't matter Much" and every question you pose or test you run is specifically positioned with leading questions or misleading results to reinforce that agenda. To help you with the logic a bit, it's called a theory if you intend to perform scientific tests to prove it. It's called an agenda if you perform non-scientific tests to prove it.

Yours sir is CLEARLY an AGENDA.

I've spent entirely too much time trying to get your head in a neutral location so you can perform a legitimate test with reasonably scientific methods (see the help me design my next test thread) yet you continue to spend time here stiring the pot vs there refining the science.

Conclusion - you have an agenda.

Now the next question that begs to be asked is - WHY?

Can you tell me the price range you sell your instruments in?
Can you tell me the build process you use to identify which slab of body wood may go best with which slab of neck wood (even you said it does make some difference)?
Have you ever heard the saying "Any press is good press"? Do you consider perpetuation of your name in these point counter point discussions a method of obtaining press?

As you can see sir, my questions don't imply any more than yours. So please feel free to respond, after all there is no right or wrong answer.

 

[J.Wolf]

Heya Jake!



Good point...I'm kinda done, I don't like being punished for sharing experience.

(And yes, under CERTAIN conditions, I think you might hear something with an IEC cable, but under "real life" ones, meh.)

yeah, I guess the same could be said for a myrid of subtle factors. The problem is in the definition of "real life" conditions.

 

[Mike Dimin]

guys

Wood matters, pickup matters, hardware matters. but NOTHING matters more than the player, their feel, touch and attack. Matt Garrison was once asked what he would sound like playing an Ibanez - "just like Matt Garrison" was the answer.

 

[GBassNorth]

guys

Wood matters, pickup matters, hardware matters. but NOTHING matters more than the player, their feel, touch and attack. Matt Garrison was once asked what he would sound like playing an Ibanez - "just like Matt Garrison" was the answer.

I completely agree!

 

[mongo2]

The problem is in the definition of "real life" conditions.

Easy for me to define...gigging in a club is my real-life condition.

 

[Mike Dimin]

we, as a society, have decided that we can be better, sound better, play better, feel better if we own a certain make, model or menu of a bass, amp, car, whatever. Truth is a real artists and craftsman can work with anything put before them. Perhaps, with certain gear, our objectives are easier to obtain, and that is the ultimate decision, after all. If it is worth the extra $ to pick up a bass that will play, feel and sound the way I want without tweaking, then I might just do it.

I play instruments with graphite necks, in large part, for this reason. I pay the extra so I can have the exacting specs and consistency over time that wood necks have never offered me

 

[-=DanAtkinson=-]

Dan - you clearly have an agenda - by your own admission - "Wood doesn't matter Much" and every question you pose or test you run is specifically positioned with leading questions or misleading results to reinforce that agenda. To help you with the logic a bit, it's called a theory if you intend to perform scientific tests to prove it. It's called an agenda if you perform non-scientific tests to prove it.

Yours sir is CLEARLY an AGENDA.

I've spent entirely too much time trying to get your head in a neutral location so you can perform a legitimate test with reasonably scientific methods (see the help me design my next test thread) yet you continue to spend time here stiring the pot vs there refining the science.

Conclusion - you have an agenda.

Now the next question that begs to be asked is - WHY?

Can you tell me the price range you sell your instruments in?
Can you tell me the build process you use to identify which slab of body wood may go best with which slab of neck wood (even you said it does make some difference)?
Have you ever heard the saying "Any press is good press"? Do you consider perpetuation of your name in these point counter point discussions a method of obtaining press?

As you can see sir, my questions don't imply any more than yours. So please feel free to respond, after all there is no right or wrong answer.

No need to get so worked up. We aren't debating religion here.

I really think you're taking this way too seriously.

The truth is, I have no agenda. I had a hunch (theory) that wood matters, but that its impact is overblown and exaggerated by many. I did some tests for my own curiousity and decided to share them with TB. We can argue all day whether they were "scientific" or not, and we won't get anywhere. Maybe they weren't scientific. Just because a comparison isn't conducted by robots in a labarotory doesn't mean it can't provide useful information. You and I both compare things all the time, every day, in less than ideal circumstances and enviornments.

At the end of the day I wanted to test the human ear, which is what really matters when dealing with "tone" in music. And everyone's ear is different. Some people couldn't hear any difference in my audio clips. Some could hear a huge difference. I heard a slight difference. So what? Everyone took away something different. Nobody should be judged or attacked for their opinion on something as subjective as this.

I don't have any emotional connection to how much wood "matters". Sorry, it's just not that critical to me. My employer might be going out of business, my father has Parkinson's Disease, my children are being crippled for life by a crushing National Debt, and I'm trying desperately to sell a house that we outgrew 3 years ago but is $40K underwater. I look to music -- and by extension, TalkBass -- as an escape from all that. I do all of it for fun and as a way to unwind. I don't do any of it to be "scientific", and I don't do any of it to affirm some weird emotional bias I have about freakin' guitar woods.

Now, if you honestly analyze the behavior and discourse in this thread (and in my threads), there is ample evidence that it is you and others in this club who have an Agenda. It is you guys who insult and attack those who do not share your beliefs. (The general theme is that anyone who doesn't hear major differences in wood tone is an amateur, they need to have their ears checked, they're clueless, they're morons, etc.) It is you guys who are by far the most sarcastic, and the most condascending in tone. It is you guys who demonstrate the most defensive behavior. It is you guys who get angry. It is you guys who become irrational.

And as your emotional attachment to a position increases, so does your tendency to reject or mock anything or anyone that doesn't agree with your views. It's Psychology 101.

I tried asking my simple hypothetical question as an attempt to "reboot" the tone of this discussion, so we could move forward and perhaps learn some things from each other. But you can't even handle that without getting all tied up in knots.

Definitely not indicative of someone who is comfortable in his position and free of emotional bias.

So...I guess you simply aren't capable of sharing a productive conversation with someone who might have different ideas than you.

 

[johnk_10]

Now, if you honestly analyze the behavior and discourse in this thread (and in my threads), there is ample evidence that it is you and others in this club who have an Agenda. It is you guys who insult and attack those who do not share your beliefs. (The general theme is that anyone who doesn't hear major differences in wood tone is an amateur, they need to have their ears checked, they're clueless, they're morons, etc.) It is you guys who are by far the most sarcastic, and the most condascending in tone. It is you guys who demonstrate the most defensive behavior. It is you guys who get angry. It is you guys who become irrational.

And as your emotional attachment to a position increases, so does your tendency to reject or mock anything or anyone that doesn't agree with your views. It's Psychology 101.

Definitely not indicative of someone who is comfortable in his position and free of emotional bias.

So...I guess you simply aren't capable of sharing a productive conversation with someone who might have different ideas than you.

IMO, that's an awful ALOT of 'finger pointing' in your post Dan. just remember, when you're pointing your finger at someone, there are three fingers pointing back at you.

 

[-=DanAtkinson=-]

IMO, that's an awful ALOT of 'finger pointing' in your post Dan. just remember, when you're pointing your finger at someone, there are three fingers pointing back at you.

John, it's funny how you only mind "finger pointing" when it comes from me. You didn't blink an eye when GBassNorth did it.

Heck, you barely blinked an eye when your club founder told me to fall of a cliff and die.

 

[Dark Horse]

 

[GBassNorth]

No need to get so worked up. We aren't debating religion here.

I really think you're taking this way too seriously.

The truth is, I have no agenda. I had a hunch (theory) that wood matters, but that its impact is overblown and exaggerated by many. I did some tests for my own curiousity and decided to share them with TB. We can argue all day whether they were "scientific" or not, and we won't get anywhere. Maybe they weren't scientific. Just because a comparison isn't conducted by robots in a labarotory doesn't mean it can't provide useful information. You and I both compare things all the time, every day, in less than ideal circumstances and enviornments.

At the end of the day I wanted to test the human ear, which is what really matters when dealing with "tone" in music. And everyone's ear is different. Some people couldn't hear any difference in my audio clips. Some could hear a huge difference. I heard a slight difference. So what? Everyone took away something different. Nobody should be judged or attacked for their opinion on something as subjective as this.

I don't have any emotional connection to how much wood "matters". Sorry, it's just not that critical to me. My employer might be going out of business, my father has Parkinson's Disease, my children are being crippled for life by a crushing National Debt, and I'm trying desperately to sell a house that we outgrew 3 years ago but is $40K underwater. I look to music -- and by extension, TalkBass -- as an escape from all that. I do all of it for fun and as a way to unwind. I don't do any of it to be "scientific", and I don't do any of it to affirm some weird emotional bias I have about freakin' guitar woods.

Now, if you honestly analyze the behavior and discourse in this thread (and in my threads), there is ample evidence that it is you and others in this club who have an Agenda. It is you guys who insult and attack those who do not share your beliefs. (The general theme is that anyone who doesn't hear major differences in wood tone is an amateur, they need to have their ears checked, they're clueless, they're morons, etc.) It is you guys who are by far the most sarcastic, and the most condascending in tone. It is you guys who demonstrate the most defensive behavior. It is you guys who get angry. It is you guys who become irrational.

And as your emotional attachment to a position increases, so does your tendency to reject or mock anything or anyone that doesn't agree with your views. It's Psychology 101.

I tried asking my simple hypothetical question as an attempt to "reboot" the tone of this discussion, so we could move forward and perhaps learn some things from each other. But you can't even handle that without getting all tied up in knots.

Definitely not indicative of someone who is comfortable in his position and free of emotional bias.

So...I guess you simply aren't capable of sharing a productive conversation with someone who might have different ideas than you.

Hmmmm.... that's a mighty broad stroke you paint with that "you guys" brush, you might want to go back thru the threads and double check your facts.

As for your "reboot" - I answered your hypothetical question, (as leading as it was) and you aknowledged it so I'm not sure what you're talking about there. For some reason you didn't answer any of my "reboot" questions. Which seems to be the norm each time I've had any questions for you. So let's just leave it at what I said before, you have an agenda - who knows why - and you like to troll threads - who knows why, and most importantly at this point - who cares.

I do sincerely hope that all get's better in some of the more unfortunate things going on in your life right now, I wouldn't wish those challenges on anyone. Hang in there, and regardless of what's going on try as best you can to focus on the positives things around you.

 

[mongo2]

So let's just leave it at what I said before, you have an agenda - who knows why - and you like to troll threads

I think you hit the nail on the head.