- Apr 24, 2004
- 1,359
- 53
- Disclosures
- Designer Fodera Guitars/Michael Pope Design, Inc., Trickfish Amplification
and I have a friend with a '95 M5 with an engine from an 850CSi and 6 speed stick in it. 440HP V12. Torque for days.
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I'm a BMW guy myself. It's funny, even with my '00 740i sport, because it handles amazingly, and I know how to drive I can waste a lot of "faster" cars. 215000 miles and it still touches 140 with no trouble. Love it. I hit 155 once. I don't get that opportunity often. Those last 15 MPH start to feel like a lot in a 5000 pound car
A few years ago I sold off some of my car collection and focused on daily drivers for the wife and I. So now I'm blessed with both a Porsche (best sports car on the market IMO) and a BMW (best sports sedan on the market IMO) and my wife loves her Jaguar (classic lines and luxury). And to tie it all back into the Wood Matters thread - nobody does highgloss walnut burl interiors like the europeans. See, Wood Matters, even in cars.
- Apr 24, 2004
- 1,359
- 53
- Disclosures
- Designer Fodera Guitars/Michael Pope Design, Inc., Trickfish Amplification
Now Folks, if wood didn't matter, why would they call it a "WOODY"
It's the old station wagon I'm talkin about, what were you folks thinkin'.
TONEWOOD________it has a nice ring to it
It's the old station wagon I'm talkin about, what were you folks thinkin'.
TONEWOOD________it has a nice ring to it
- Apr 24, 2004
- 1,359
- 53
- Disclosures
- Designer Fodera Guitars/Michael Pope Design, Inc., Trickfish Amplification
Can you measure and quantify these claims?
You can only hear it if you use gold connectors on all your cables, and the cables are oxygen-free phase-aligned cables that cost at least $20/foot. Don't forget the gold plated contacts for the power outlet you plug into as well.
...measure and quantify?
No, I WON'T do that, because I don't need to. If you NEED to have quantified measurements, you need to get to an audiologist.
That or the nearest high end audiophile shop. What I have is a controlled situation, with a limited set of variables, and a pair of ears that have been used as a professional musician's ears for over 30 years (and protected correctly the entire time). I don't want you to take my word as the final arbiter of this, I am just sharing my (valid) experiences as both a player and someone that happens to work in a shop that builds hundreds of bass guitars a year for the past 6 years:
~300 basses a year for 6 years = ~1800 instruments; of those ~1800 instruments, a full 100% of them have been played through the same amp (PJB Briefcase, at ear level, set flat, no compression), through the same cable, with the same hands. Of those, at least 80% had the same pickups and preamp installed. I play every single note on every bass we ship. Every note. Every time. It's part of my QC check before I pack it and ship it.
Before I came to work where I am now, I was a manager at Bass Central in Orlando, and there were literally hundreds of instruments of all varieties within arm's reach all day, for 5 years, 6 days a week.
Believe me, I have a big enough sample size to comment on this. The wood makes a genuine and discernible difference. Failing to note it is either a fault in one's physiological ability to hear the difference in timbre, or an (intentional or unintentional) oversight on the part of the listener.
By the way, posting sound clips on the internet to back up the claim that the difference cannot be heard is like putting photos up on the 'net to say that you can't tell the difference between cobalt blue and indigo - you cannot eliminate enough variables for it to be an accurate representation to the end listener (looker)! How was it recorded? How was it mixed? What did the recording have added or subtracted to it in the way of EQ, effects, compression? What was being used for monitor speakers when it was mixed? How did you upload the clip - is it a .wmv file? An .acc file? Lossless or non-lossless format? Was the file corrupted in any way when downloaded? What is the listener using as a method of playing the file back? What kind of speakers is the listener using?
You can only hear it if you use gold connectors on all your cables, and the cables are oxygen-free phase-aligned cables that cost at least $20/foot. Don't forget the gold plated contacts for the power outlet you plug into as well.
...measure and quantify?
No, I WON'T do that, because I don't need to. If you NEED to have quantified measurements, you need to get to an audiologist.
What I have is a controlled situation, with a limited set of variables, and a pair of ears that have been used as a professional musician's ears for over 30 years (and protected correctly the entire time). I don't want you to take my word as the final arbiter of this, I am just sharing my (valid) experiences as both a player and someone that happens to work in a shop that builds hundreds of bass guitars a year for the past 6 years:
~300 basses a year for 6 years = ~1800 instruments; of those ~1800 instruments, a full 100% of them have been played through the same amp (PJB Briefcase, at ear level, set flat, no compression), through the same cable, with the same hands. Of those, at least 80% had the same pickups and preamp installed. I play every single note on every bass we ship. Every note. Every time. It's part of my QC check before I pack it and ship it.
Before I came to work where I am now, I was a manager at Bass Central in Orlando, and there were literally hundreds of instruments of all varieties within arm's reach all day, for 5 years, 6 days a week.
Believe me, I have a big enough sample size to comment on this. The wood makes a genuine and discernible difference. Failing to note it is either a fault in one's physiological ability to hear the difference in timbre, or an (intentional or unintentional) oversight on the part of the listener.
By the way, posting sound clips on the internet to back up the claim that the difference cannot be heard is like putting photos up on the 'net to say that you can't tell the difference between cobalt blue and indigo - you cannot eliminate enough variables for it to be an accurate representation to the end listener (looker)! How was it recorded? How was it mixed? What did the recording have added or subtracted to it in the way of EQ, effects, compression? What was being used for monitor speakers when it was mixed? How did you upload the clip - is it a .wmv file? An .acc file? Lossless or non-lossless format? Was the file corrupted in any way when downloaded? What is the listener using as a method of playing the file back? What kind of speakers is the listener using?
+1800!!!
At last, someone with a statistically significant sample size!
One of the many key statements in your post ..."What is the listener using as a method of playing the file back? What kind of speakers is the listener using?" This I suspect is one of the key variables conveniently left out of the discussions in the "tests" that have been done to date.
I don't know about you but I don't know anyone who goes to a bar or club or concert or arena and listens to the show on a pair of 3" $50 computer speakers from Radio Shack. Heck, I don't even use that for practice or noodleing around.
Why would anyone stake a claim on that listening method - unless of course it helped support their theory.
Just in case I haven't said it recently - Wood Matters.
Thanks for your post!
You can only hear it if you use gold connectors on all your cables, and the cables are oxygen-free phase-aligned cables that cost at least $20/foot. Don't forget the gold plated contacts for the power outlet you plug into as well.
...measure and quantify?
No, I WON'T do that, because I don't need to. If you NEED to have quantified measurements, you need to get to an audiologist.
What I have is a controlled situation, with a limited set of variables, and a pair of ears that have been used as a professional musician's ears for over 30 years (and protected correctly the entire time). I don't want you to take my word as the final arbiter of this, I am just sharing my (valid) experiences as both a player and someone that happens to work in a shop that builds hundreds of bass guitars a year for the past 6 years:
~300 basses a year for 6 years = ~1800 instruments; of those ~1800 instruments, a full 100% of them have been played through the same amp (PJB Briefcase, at ear level, set flat, no compression), through the same cable, with the same hands. Of those, at least 80% had the same pickups and preamp installed. I play every single note on every bass we ship. Every note. Every time. It's part of my QC check before I pack it and ship it.
Before I came to work where I am now, I was a manager at Bass Central in Orlando, and there were literally hundreds of instruments of all varieties within arm's reach all day, for 5 years, 6 days a week.
Believe me, I have a big enough sample size to comment on this. The wood makes a genuine and discernible difference. Failing to note it is either a fault in one's physiological ability to hear the difference in timbre, or an (intentional or unintentional) oversight on the part of the listener.
By the way, posting sound clips on the internet to back up the claim that the difference cannot be heard is like putting photos up on the 'net to say that you can't tell the difference between cobalt blue and indigo - you cannot eliminate enough variables for it to be an accurate representation to the end listener (looker)! How was it recorded? How was it mixed? What did the recording have added or subtracted to it in the way of EQ, effects, compression? What was being used for monitor speakers when it was mixed? How did you upload the clip - is it a .wmv file? An .acc file? Lossless or non-lossless format? Was the file corrupted in any way when downloaded? What is the listener using as a method of playing the file back? What kind of speakers is the listener using?
But can you prove it??
Ok im gonna start handin out numbers to people who back up my claim whether they ask for it or not.
350 posts and 29 members is kinda to be ashamed of....
350 posts and 29 members is kinda to be ashamed of....
You may give me a number (I'd like "Agent 86" if you don't mind), but I probably won't put it in my sig...
...and Victor Wooten, Adam Nitti, and Michael Manring each have a "pair of ears that have been used as a professional musician's ears" pretty extensively.
Yet they claim to be able to hear the difference cause by a high dollar IEC power cable for an amplifier.
http://www.essentialsound.com/guitar-bass.htm#victor-wooten
"Essential Sound Products' cords are incredible.
I've never seen more care and attention put into a power cord.
And you can definitely hear the difference."
http://www.essentialsound.com/guitar-bass.htm#adam-nitti
"If you are as obsessive about your tone as I am, you have to check these power cords out. Hearing is believing!"
http://www.essentialsound.com/guitar-bass.htm#michael-manring
"The MusicCord-PRO power cord is a neat device that optimizes the performance of audio gear, adding clarity to the low frequencies and creating a more focused, articulate sound.
If you're serious about fidelity, you'll want to use it."
No, they can't tell any difference between the Musiccord and any other correctly sized IEC power cord.
...because there is no difference. Ask any EE what possible mechanism exists for a power cord to change sound (never mind the 50+ feet of 14ga Romex that power goes through to get to your outlet) and they'll tell you none.
Now, I don't doubt these guys THINK they hear a difference... just as I don't doubt they would completely fail to hear said difference in an unsighted test.
I am and EE...I was just yanking your chain.
I'm also an EE (well, technically my degree is Computer Engineering with a concentration in VLSI)... and if there is one thing I've learned over the years it's that no one has trustworthy ears when it comes to sighted tests. Sadly, none of us can overcome the subconcious effects of the visual medium.
This was demonstrated to me by someone at the old Bass Exchange who ran the shop. I initially said " no way" and " you are crazy !", then he a/b'd the power cables as I played then we changed roles to make sure ....I didnt think he was crazy when I left.
The Tara Lab power cable made a smallish ( compared to an instrument cable) but noticable difference.
Not calling you a liar, but I think this gets back to what aborgman just said:
Maybe I should start marketing $200 bass straps that enhance the "fundamentals" and "bloom" and "clarity".
Did the Tara Labs power cord/speaker cable/guitar cable test, double blind at Bass Central with a co-worker about what...7-8 years ago now.
THAT was pure snake-oil. Sorry, but for a buck or two, most anyone will say anything and let a company print it. Even I would.
If one of those companies wants me to give them a quote for one of their BS ads, tell 'em to get their check book out, and make sure there are at least 4 digits to the left of the decimal point, they can quote me 'til the cows come home. That or give me a couple dozen of their garbage garden variety power cables, and I'll sell 'em.
Fact is, there is NO WAY you can hear, in an actual playing situation, the difference in a cable. In a recording studio, you might be able to discern the difference - but in a pretty controlled environment, i.e. the Bass Central shop, using dozens of different amps, cabs, and basses, you could not hear a difference between a $2 computer cable from Radio Shack and a $600 Tara Labs power cable, you could not hear a difference between a $5 Ernie Ball speaker cable and a $100 Tara Labs speaker cable, and you could not hear the difference between a $20 Whirlwind instrument cable and a $200 Tara Labs instrument cable (wait, not true, I actually preferred the Whirlwind! ).
Going back to the WOOD question, because that's what we're talking about here, right? When ALL VARIABLES are the same, EXCEPT the wood, in a controlled situation which is the same every time, I can hear a difference, everyone in this shop can hear a difference. Even if a Tara Labs (or other snake-oil audio company) cable is in the mix.
THAT was pure snake-oil. Sorry, but for a buck or two, most anyone will say anything and let a company print it. Even I would.
If one of those companies wants me to give them a quote for one of their BS ads, tell 'em to get their check book out, and make sure there are at least 4 digits to the left of the decimal point, they can quote me 'til the cows come home. That or give me a couple dozen of their garbage garden variety power cables, and I'll sell 'em. Fact is, there is NO WAY you can hear, in an actual playing situation, the difference in a cable. In a recording studio, you might be able to discern the difference - but in a pretty controlled environment, i.e. the Bass Central shop, using dozens of different amps, cabs, and basses, you could not hear a difference between a $2 computer cable from Radio Shack and a $600 Tara Labs power cable, you could not hear a difference between a $5 Ernie Ball speaker cable and a $100 Tara Labs speaker cable, and you could not hear the difference between a $20 Whirlwind instrument cable and a $200 Tara Labs instrument cable (wait, not true, I actually preferred the Whirlwind!
).Going back to the WOOD question, because that's what we're talking about here, right?
When ALL VARIABLES are the same, EXCEPT the wood, in a controlled situation which is the same every time, I can hear a difference, everyone in this shop can hear a difference. Even if a Tara Labs (or other snake-oil audio company) cable is in the mix.
