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Double Bass Yamahiko Double Bass Pickup

My present plan is to rewire the 1/4 jack on the Yamahiko to a stereo 1/4 female jack (as long as there are no electronics in there) with two leads coming out one for each pickup. That way I can hook them together as they are supposed to be or I can split them apart (yet still only have one cord coming from the bass to the Felix.) or just use one (or both in one channel) with a mic. THe Felix will take a stereo cord from the bass and then split the signal to each eq channel. If as Mike says there are phasing problems with the two elements hooked together, then splitting them to the two channels of the felix should solve the phasing and eq.
Last night I played with a nice trio in a nice room and I had a FC and Remic on my big bass going into the MAS 16 and it was a totally acoustic killing sound.
 
My present plan is to rewire the 1/4 jack on the Yamahiko to a stereo 1/4 female jack (as long as there are no electronics in there) with two leads coming out one for each pickup. That way I can hook them together as they are supposed to be or I can split them apart (yet still only have one cord coming from the bass to the Felix.) or just use one (or both in one channel) with a mic. THe Felix will take a stereo cord from the bass and then split the signal to each eq channel. If as Mike says there are phasing problems with the two elements hooked together, then splitting them to the two channels of the felix should solve the phasing and eq.
Last night I played with a nice trio in a nice room and I had a FC and Remic on my big bass going into the MAS 16 and it was a totally acoustic killing sound.

This seems to be your go to combination, likely because it gives you the option of playing louder. It might be judicious to talk to Mr. Yamaya and see if he could send the pickup out with the stereo jack pre installed.
How are you powering the MAS 1/6?

Ric
 
Yeah He already sent it. I cant seem to find anyplace here to get those micro dot plugs. Ideally I'd like to have two of those microdot cords coming out of the stereo jack (one tip one sleeve) so if I use the pickup with a mic I can either hook the two elements together or just use one element. But my plan is to have the Yamahiko on the contrabassetto, and if only one element is the way to go then to have one on each bass. I sprung for the Yama because my full circle is getting really old and the wire shorts if it gets moved at all (I dont really want to try and fix it...too old)
I have strips of that super velcro on the side of my 16 and back of the 46 and the back of the AI Focus so I make them into mini combo amps and plug the felix in there. Ideally I'd have a powered 16 and powered 46 but that is going to have to wait for a minute.
THe 16 with my big bass is a sick little speaker ( too bright sometimes with the little bass I prefer the 46 with that but still I play a lot of gigs with the little bass and 16....the easiest shlep you can possibly imagine)
 
Yeah He already sent it. I cant seem to find anyplace here to get those micro dot plugs. Ideally I'd like to have two of those microdot cords coming out of the stereo jack (one tip one sleeve) so if I use the pickup with a mic I can either hook the two elements together or just use one element. But my plan is to have the Yamahiko on the contrabassetto, and if only one element is the way to go then to have one on each bass. I sprung for the Yama because my full circle is getting really old and the wire shorts if it gets moved at all (I dont really want to try and fix it...too old)
I have strips of that super velcro on the side of my 16 and back of the 46 and the back of the AI Focus so I make them into mini combo amps and plug the felix in there. Ideally I'd have a powered 16 and powered 46 but that is going to have to wait for a minute.
THe 16 with my big bass is a sick little speaker ( too bright sometimes with the little bass I prefer the 46 with that but still I play a lot of gigs with the little bass and 16....the easiest shlep you can possibly imagine)


Fitting a pickup with the appropriate jack configuration always involves a little bit of retrofitting, to find the right connector for your needs. It took me several tries to get the Ehrlund EAP setup with a simple sturdy connection.
Although I've considered getting a powered MAS 1/6, the setup you're using makes it easier to swap out power amps, should the need arise to do so. There are always phase issues with dual element pickups, so
using a single one on each of your instruments is a good idea.

Ric
 
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I don't know if there are always phasing issues. I think sometimes that the two pickups split the signal and that can seem like a phasing issue. Having control over both volumes may in itself make that clear. I can see just having a pick up on the little bass.
As to the amp thing, I still do not have cord management under control with the Felix...too many plugs and connections, I would so dig to have a powered speaker and that many fewer connection and things to go wrong. If an M700 presented itself I wouldn't look back though, I'd just fix it to the back of the MAS 46 permanently and call it a day.
 
Splitting the pickups via a passive jack..there will be crosstalk and bleed (not to mention intermittent phase issues) with anything but an active splitter.

huh? it's done all the time? Why would there be cross talk or bleed ? The signals would come in on different wires and be soldered to tip and sleeve then sent down a stereo cable to the Felix which splits seperates the signal...Where would the cross talk be? and what is an active splitter?
 
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OT, just a bit...
I just went to the Yamahiko website and couldn't believe the word-salad ad copy that appears there.
This pickup looks like a high-quality, well-designed product, but their website does not represent them very well.
Don't we have the technology to easily have someone translate, proof-read and edit, so that potential buyers are clearly informed?
That being said, I am VERY curious as to how the single element version will perform.
Thanks for taking one/two for the team, @flatback !
 
I don't know if there are always phasing issues. I think sometimes that the two pickups split the signal and that can seem like a phasing issue. Having control over both volumes may in itself make that clear. I can see just having a pick up on the little bass.

Evidently, some folks feel the dual element Underwood has phasing issues, so they remove one of the two sensors. Personally, I never remember having problems with that particular issue, but I was running the Underwood directly into a Walter Woods MI-100-8 that has a phase switch. Toggiling it back and forth, ther was a difference in the pickups sound, but it was subtile.

As to the amp thing, I still do not have cord management under control with the Felix...too many plugs and connections, I would so dig to have a powered speaker and that many fewer connection and things to go wrong. If an M700 presented itself I wouldn't look back though, I'd just fix it to the back of the MAS 46 permanently and call it a day.

Yeah, I hear you on that one. The Grace Felix requires two cords, where I used to only need one. Finding the proper jacks on the back of the unit, isn't one of the easiest things to do, Then there's all the different grey button configurations to set the various little grey line/source buttons. IMHO the best thing they could do is make every one of those
a different color.

Ric
 
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OK
the bad news
As I thought it might, when you use the interconnecting cord between the pickups---it sounds like crap. (one pickup connected to the other). No wonder this hasn't caught on. That's their recommended setup. Thin, middy, bright.
But----- I also purchased another pickup-to-jack cord. Ran into the 2 channels of the Doubler. You can get very different characters of sound by varying the respective volumes. Sounded great. What made it sound REALLY great was using the variable phase control. It sounded good in phase. It sounded good but fatter 180 degrees out of phase. It sounded---the best I've ever heard somewhere in between. Now I'm going to have to talk to Zoran to see if I can get a custom box to combine and vary phase. I think it's still fantastic if you can combine the two----maybe a Felix.


Like Mike said earlier....
 
Hey Mr PC can you explain this because I have no idea what you are talking about: Are you saying that if I take the two Yamahiko pickups and wire them to a stereo jack and then send it to a stereo cord and then to separate channels on the Felix there will STILL be phase issues? ANd what is an active splitter? can you show me one on a web page so I know what you are talking about?
THanks,
I could just as easily but much less elegantly have each pickup go to a separate jack and cord and then bind the two 1/4 cords together and do it that way (I already do that with a mic and pickup cable)
 
Phasing occurs because of the different distances from string or bridge foot to the pickups.

The different distances give a different time delay which gives the effect of a comb filter, just less strong since the signals differ a bit in spectral content.

The distance itself only has an influence on the frequency distance of the comb, but it won't reduce the effect.
 
The two elements of may exhibit phase issues by the nature of their location on the bridge. For any given note, one element may pick up the sound wave slightly before or behind the other pickup, depending on how the sound wave propagates through the bridge and top of the bass. The signal phases may be misaligned by mere degrees. Phase issues won't necessarily be solved with any kind of active buffering as the buffering itself won't align the phases. The best you could do without special circuity would be to flip one pickup or the other by 180deg (a simple inversion). For total alignment, you really need something like a Radial JDV MK5 with their variable phase control, which sets the phase of one channel to be continuously variable between 0 and 180 degrees.

That's not to say that a Grace Felix or other 2-input mixer with a phase switch won't be useful for comparing 1 or 2 elements, it just means that you won't be able to fine-tune the phase alignment unless there is a specific control built in for that purpose. That's exactly what Mike Arnopol was referring to regarding the phase alignment tool in the Euphonic Doubler.
 
Ideally, the ground sleeve is connected only at the preamp input.So a quad cable with a cable shield. I like the woven shields myself. This way the + and - signals of your individual pickups are isolated. The shield is constant when you flip the phase on your pickup signals. I'm afraid an onboard active split for DB might be a custom piece. I'd explore the buffers from Grizzly Audio or Bartolini for something like that..personally I'm still relying on single source signal from my instruments. Blending has been a fools errand for me. Just haven't had the patience to develop a system for my self. Not saying it's like that for everyone.
 
OK so before I have my bridge cut for these pickups, I will have 2 pickups one on each bridge leg. Here's what I want to know definitively: If I have one installed threads up and one threads down will that reverse the phase? If it would then maybe I should tell mr. Yamaya who is interested in improving his product that he should have for his two element pickup the second pickup built that way so that the threads are in the same direction but the pickup is flipped...someone earlier insisted that it didnt matter if you flipped it it wouldnt change the phase. My experience with the schertler is that switching one backward sounds way better, but that might be because it is picking up some area of vibration it likes.
Seems like Mike said that flipping the phase at the amp worked great but that better was having control over the relative volumes, and then that variable phase (which I dont have the gear to get into) made him super happy.
 
There is no technical way to get away from "phasing" issues of two or more pickup positions. The best you can archive is a different spacing of the teeth of the resulting comb filter.

Flipping the pickup does nothing for pressure sensitive pickups, only for bending sensitive ones and that flips polarity and has nothing to do with phase, even if it is almost always called phase.

Two-element bridge wing pickups which connect the shield to the outer brass on both elements are pressure sensitive in the same way, but since the bridge crown presses on one or the other, the resulting signals are "out of phase" (which means if one goes up, the other one goes down in amplitude). Exchanging the shield and signal wires on one of the pickup elements would get them in phase but put the signal on one brass enclosure. (If the elements were made different, I.e. by flipping the crystal of one element only the brass of both could be shielded. But then the electrical orientation of the crystal needs to be measured and I doubt that would be done since this might be some additional work that is not that simple. I rather guess that the electrical orientation of the two crystals is by accident only.)

Phasing issues are produced by a time delay. As long as the time delay is the same for all frequencies contained in one of the signals, this can be compensated by delaying the quicker signal by the same time amount. But in case of the bass the time delays from one string to one of the two pickups is different to the time delays from a different string.

Phasing means a shift in phase, but this is a different amount of time depending on the frequency. This is possible with electronic components, but it does not eliminate the problem we have.

Since there is a great misunderstanding about phasing issues and what the typical electronic circuits do we can discuss this for years without getting away from where we are now.

If pickups and preamps would be much cheaper: the more pickups you use distributed over the top, the better the signal gets, because the teeth of one comb are filled by the signal of another comb.

That might also be the reason why a closely positioned large diaphragm mic sounds better than a smaller diaphragm mic at the same position, but I'm afraid there are a lot of other reasons that might have more influence than the diaphragm size alone.

So with a two element pickup you always get a comb filter effect. The only thing you can do is moving the regularly positioned teeth, which might sound better on one note and less good on another.

There is nothing wrong with flipping the signal polarity on one of a two element pickup. But it changes the sound. If both signals would be identical, the signal would cancel out but due to time delay and different volume amounts of components with the same frequency this doesn't happen with bass pickups.

Flipping the polarity of a mono signal to an amp also changes the sound, but can help to reduce some peaks in the feedback frequency response which can be more important to a change in sound. It can also make it worse, since it depends a lot on bass top to speaker distance (the time delay) and signal flipping and phase shift (mostly in the EQ circuits) of the electronics.
 
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Flipping the polarity of a mono signal to an amp also changes the sound, but can help to reduce some peaks in the feedback frequency response which can be more important to a change in sound. It can also make it worse, since it depends a lot on bass top to speaker distance (the time delay) and signal flipping and phase shift (mostly in the EQ circuits) of the electronics.

That's certianly true with the phase switches on my Walter Woods MI-400-8 or Grace Designs Felix. Just from my experience, the switch can be very effective at eliminating feedback. Phasing issues are a different matter.

I think that's why the Realist, Full Circle, Ehrlund, Ischell, Stat B, Revolution Solo II and many other pickups use a single element. It solves the issue simply and affordably.

Ric
 
Ok so what Im getting out of all this is, two pickups bad one pickup good? Unless ten pickups, then good or bad depending.
I think I am just going to try it all out and see what my aural exciters say (the two ((in phase)) on either side of my head)
 
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Flatback, you'd have to be a rocket geothermal electrical physics phase scientist to understand it...

Which is why nobody, including all the manufacturers and inventors of pickups for bass, haven't figured it out yet either..

But I can tell you this, you will get the "phasing out" sound when you use two pickups whether you flip them around or not..

I've experienced it with many dual type pickups.. I do have the tools with me now to try different things but none of them have worked..

I have not however tried that Liam pickup Ric talked about that has the two Gains for D and G strings and E and A strings in the preamp box..

I can flip switches all day long with my dual stat-b or Shadow with two elements or if you want to see what two realists on each foot does, take a wild guess..

But regardless of everything.. When you get it, just install it and looking forward to your recordings..

:thumbsup:
 
Long ago I had a Macgyver dual Bass Max setup that went through a 2 channel preamp. It reminded me of the setup of an electric bass that has a bridge pickup and a neck pickup: one is kind of dark on its own, the other is kind of bright on its own; together and full-on, it sounded a little weird, but if I rolled either or both back a bit I got a lot of interesting and nice sounds. In the end, while there are a lot of complicated physics involved, it's all about the ears.
 
That's certianly true with the phase switches on my Walter Woods MI-400-8 or Grace Designs Felix. Just from my experience, the switch can be very effective at eliminating feedback. Phasing issues are a different matter.
I can not help beating my old horse: When I flip the phase on my preamp, in one position the sound is thinner, in the other it is more full. I always use the one with fullest sound. My explanation is that in one of the positions, the bass and what comes out of the loudspeaker are more in phase. In my case, that is with unreversed phase. This applies when I am reasonably close to the amp (< 1 meter). I never stand further away. I use an acoustic mic (Crown GLM 100) on my bass.
My interest in the subject once led me to experiment with the phase using my electric bass, and I would swear one felt more "right" than the other.
 
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