Double Bass Yamahiko Double Bass Pickup

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Quick update on this pickup after a loud open air quartet gig
Turns out at least until I can separate them, I like just the one better by itself. Two can get whiny. But man just the one E side pickup is the single best non mic pickup I ever used.

 

[Les Fret]

. But man just the one E side pickup is the single best non mic pickup I ever used.

So what is the best pickup for you? How is the yamahiko at loud volumes feedback wise compared to the FC?

And what advantage does the two sensor version have over the one sensor version? Did anyone compare them? Is there much difference?

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Some basses don't work well with a one sided pickup.

That happened with my 5- string when I got it new from the luthier. Some strings might not get through as loud and articulate as the others (with bridge wing and bridge foot pickup).
After a soundpost repositioning (more away/"south" from the bridge leg) that changed on my instrument (years after I got it initially). But now the instrument is much softer which is nice with the bow but maybe a bit less punching through pizzed. But still much better than in the beginning.

There might be other reasons than the soundpost position that leads to a situation where you might need two pickup elements.

 

[flatback]

Im not going to get into MBOl nonsense about this pickup because I dont think that gets you anywhere, but I can tell you this, I wont take this pickup off ever and I'm going to get one for both basses both sides. I will figure out how to phase them. This is the loudest best sounding piezo I have played. Very musical sounding pickup. I totally love it....I cannot believe that I have known about this pickup for 25 years and spent all this money other places. I could easily have this pickup on my bass and nothing else. Last night I thought I had the Remic blended in but noticed later that it wasn't. It didnt matter.
Two things though: I have the input impedance set to 20Mghom on the Felix. It might sound way different with a different amp setting I haven't t tried it that way (maybe thats how Eddie gets it so mid rangy... that and the two pickups tied together) the other thing is the MAS speaker which by itself makes every pickup I have tried sound WAY better. But from the moment I plugged this in the sound was punchy yet thumpy yet clear but not whiny. It (on my bass) does not get thin with one element...just a little uneven bass to treble. I already ordered the other jack so that I can have them eq'd separately. I had them tied together for the first part of the gig last night but pulled the cord to the second pickup within a song or two. It gets LOUD without changing character too.
Somewhere in Mr. Yamana's web page he talks about the sensors being "industrial grade" I dont know what this means but it sounds that way. THe signal sounds clear and full range without piezo quack or too much emphasis on this or that...I think that the combo of the better piezo and especially the fact that it is "IN THE SHAFT" of the adjuster picking up the vertical vibrations rather then the horizontal makes a difference in the natural sound. Speaking of natural it sounds to my ears "through my gear" way more natural then the FC which sounds sloppy in comparison. On that video of Mike you can hear that he plays a more articulate finger style play and yet it has thump. On my big old Tyrolean bass it brings out the dark sound of the bass without significantly altering the sound of the instrument. and you can crank it way up without the character changing....I was able (when it was really loud) to get standing feedback started on open strings but that would happen with anything cranked that loud.
Thanks Mike for taking the plunge and getting this started, I have had a lot of pickups but I like this the best. Im going to put the Ischell on there today and see how they sound together although after last night Im looking for 2 channel plug and play options again (maybe with variable phase)...

 

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Can someone answer the question "How small a box can a variable phase circuit be put into?" I cant seem to find anything other then the Radial listed above? I would really love to keep using the Felix but be able to put these two sensors perfectly out of phase?
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[lowfreqgeek]

Can someone answer the question "How small a box can a variable phase circuit be put into?" I cant seem to find anything other then the Radial listed above? I would really love to keep using the Felix but be able to put these two sensors perfectly out of phase?

It could be made very small, but would likely have to be custom made. Do you just want 180deg phase shift (no variable phase)? Two Fdecks could accomplish that - one for each pickup, switch the phase on one. Do both channels on the Felix have 1/4" Hi-Z inputs? If so, you could use each channel and I assume flip the phase on one of those. An AI Flex could also work (that's what I use right now).

But yeah, a 2-input, hi-Z, phase-selectable box could be very small and rather easy to do. Heck, the first pass would be as simple as a small mechanical switch to flip the hot/gnd wires in your cable.

 

[flatback]

Yeah no, we can already flip the phase. I will try that when I get the new cable. BUT the more I read about phase alignment tools, the more it seems like Variable phase is the way to go...like the little labs IBP

 

[lowfreqgeek]

It could be made very small, but would likely have to be custom made. Do you just want 180deg phase shift (no variable phase)? Two Fdecks could accomplish that - one for each pickup, switch the phase on one.

I should clarify - you don't *need* 2 fDecks to do that, but it would ensure more or less matched inputs for each Piezo. That's all.

 

[lowfreqgeek]

Little Labs was the first that I know of to do the phase alignment tool. Not sure if the inputs are suitable for piezos, though. Ours might be a unique case. That's the beauty of the Radial - identical inputs for each pickup, and a single mixed output.

 

[flatback]

looks like it would be hard to use a phase alignment box WITH a Felix preamp unless it had the right 20Mhm imped. you would have to have it before the preamp...
How about Mike you get Sonic Farm to build the perfect upright bass amp head like the Tantra only without all the fuzz but with 2 channals clean tube stage and variable phase?

 

[lowfreqgeek]

looks like it would be hard to use a phase alignment box WITH a Felix preamp unless it had the right 20Mhm imped. you would have to have it before the preamp...
How about Mike you get Sonic Farm to build the perfect upright bass amp head like the Tantra only without all the fuzz but with 2 channals clean tube stage and variable phase?

Little different application, but this was interesting. Unfortunately, the Radial Phazer isn't optimized for the Hi-Z piezo and would need a buffer in front of it. If the Felix had separate inserts for each channel, this would work beautifully, but it appears the insert is global.

 

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Dude thanks that is great. BUT what you said, the input impedance has to be there AND the fx loop IS global. Bummer because the Felix is the bomb. I do run the whole thing into a two channel AI Focus so I know I can swing it but we're getting complicated here and I'm hoping for simple.

 

[lowfreqgeek]

Dude thanks that is great. BUT what you said, the input impedance has to be there AND the fx loop IS global. Bummer because the Felix is the bomb. I do run the whole thing into a two channel AI Focus so I know I can swing it but we're getting complicated here and I'm hoping for simple.

How does the Yamahiko sound directly into the Focus? You could also test the 180deg phase switch with the Focus. The input impedance isn't as high, but it should be high enough to give you an idea if it improves anything since both channels are identical and all that.

I've been considering something very similar between my AMT and Realist, but this thread has me considering the Yamahiko as a mic-free solution for when I'm travelling. If I can find the time, I just might build exactly what you're looking for. It's relatively easy to do, but time consuming and not all that cheap for a one-off.

 

[flatback]

2 off?

 

[flatback]

I dont have the second jack yet so I can only test the Y pickup either as a combined two element (where the phasing is a very real thing) or as single elements (listening to each separately makes me want to pursue the variable phase thing) It sounds really good into the Focus and I could easily use that sound (Rick put a higher 10MOHM imp jack in one of my channels on that amp) although the Felix has a very special sound and eq that I find worth the extra weight and bulk and complexity of strapping it on top of the Focus....

 

[flatback]

using the phase buttons does not do much....button out sounds good button in sounds weaker. But again that is summed.

 

[lowfreqgeek]

2 off?

Definitely a possibility...

 

[lowfreqgeek]

using the phase buttons does not do much....button out sounds good button in sounds weaker. But again that is summed.

I think the only way to realize the advantage of the phase switching is to separate the pickups once you have the right cable from Yamahiko.

 

[flatback]

Actually using the Focus would work with the Radial Phazer...or any other phase box because the Focus has FX inserts for both channels rather then one for both. So a dual element Yamahiko into a Focus 2 channel with a phase box inserted into one channel would do it. Simple clean....Only problem is my $1,000 dollar preamp is left at home.....
It never fails to impress me how Rick thinks of things way out front....I've owned this Focus for 10 years now....

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I doubt that a variable phase control would solve the problem with two-element pickups and sound like a single element pickup with better or more equal representation of all strings than with a single pickup element.

I even doubt most of you know what variable phase control really does.

And it won't help.

Phasing comes from a time delay from a source to two pickups at different positions. The source is the string (and don't forget you have several of them at different positions relative to the pickup elements) and the time delay is mainly dependent on the distance from string to pickup. If you try to delay the one pickup by the time difference to the other, that won't work if the string used is on the opposite side. If you delay the E pickup for playing on the E string you make things worse for playing on the G string, where the G side pickup should be delayed. There is no solution by introducing a time delay which shifts the complete signal in time.

A time delay keeps the phases of all frequencies locked to each other, so that when the fundamental shifts by a quarter of the fundamental, the octave shifts by a half of it's wavelength and the double octave by a full of it's own wavelength. So the partials move phase by a different amount but by the same time.
By inverting the phase it's not a really a phase shift because there is no time delay but an inversion of all partials. So there is no relative shifting of phases as with a time delay which needs to be adjusted for each fundamental anyway for a 180 degree phase shift.

All-pass filter, named after they pass all frequencies with the same volume but with a frequency dependent time shift, can shift all phases by the same amount, but only for a certain fundamental. So if you play any other notes the phase shift of the partials won't be the same amount.
And you still have the different time delay because of the different positions of the strings and their different time delays to the two pickup elements.

Of course, you might get a better signal than a worse one because of a non-optimal construction of the pickup or the electronics following, but never a signal as good as with a single element pickup.
So don't throw out money until you know it would help. Better try a visit at your luthier and check if a soundpost move helps getting a more equal representation of the amplified sound of your bass.
That might even be cheaper than getting the second pickup element. At least worth a try.

BTW, connecting two passive piezo elements in parallel sounds less good than one element alone. I checked that when I built the pickup system for my EUB with two elements. Because of that no th elements got a impedance buffer of its own, the outputs mixed and one optionally phase inverted and then the sum amplified again. Sound is very good for an EUB with piezo disks cut and covered by wood under the bridge legs. For the 5-string solid body EUB the was no other solution than using two pickup elements, since there is no soundpost that could be moved and I disliked the sound with rubber cork under the pickup elements.

So there are situations when two-element pickups are needed, but we should think about what solution is the best compromise we can live with.