Double Bass Yet another PU comparison (FC, Realist, Ehrlund, Schatten & mics)

[Huy Nguyen]

That goes without saying. We're assuming he put it in the optimum place for each pickup on his bass. Of course where he puts it is also subjective to what he likes.

 

[drurb]

That goes without saying. We're assuming he put it in the optimum place for each pickup on his bass. Of course where he puts it is also subjective to what he likes.

Not sure it goes without saying, given you raised the "preferences" issue and the notion that we are, of course, picking the transducers on the basis of what we like. I guess that went without saying too. I'm extending the point you made about preferences to Adagio and not simply the listeners. He put the pickups where he liked their sound.

Notice that we agree.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Inconceivable!

 

[Adagio]

Lots of different perspectives, it's really interesting to see how conception of a good DB sound changes from one to another. 3&7 are not getting much love, I think most of you have figured by now that they're a different kind from the rest...

There are other explanations. We're listening to these clips on a variety of systems. While some of the sonic characteristics are relative stable across them, others are likely not to be. Played on different systems, I suspect that many people's preferences would change.

Very true. I've listen to my clips on a many different systems with different speaker sizes, from my tiny iPhone earbuds, to my car sound system, to my 70's era telefunken faux finish twin 12", and the sound tremendously changes from one to another. My favorites are not always the same! Since they're recored direct, I also wanted to reamp them so I could get a better idea of how it sounds through my amp, from afar, or simpled recorded through a speaker . Actually, this is exactly my point. By recording these samples, I wanted to compare how those different PU perform in different contexts, so I'd get a better idea as for which one to use and how to control the mix.

Keep in mind that the sound of the transducers, the positions of which can be changed (e.g., Ehrlund and mics), depends heavily on where Adagio chose to place them. The Ehrlund, for example, can sound spectacular in one position and like dog doo in another. We're getting only a sample of one position and our different preferences would likely have many of us placing them at different locations.

Can look at picture in my first post for the Ehrlund location on my bass, this is pretty much the standard sweet spot. I placed the Schatten right next to it, cause I wanted to compare apples with apples, but I must admit I'd often place those two close to the bridge foot, treble side. I want to record that as well so I might update with more clips as soon if I got free time!

 

[drurb]

Thanks for the additional insights, Adagio. Your placement of the Ehrlund is, indeed, within what many judge as the sweet area. On my bass it's closer to the f-hole but there are, of course, differences among basses and preferences. On my bass, moving the pickup away from where it sits by even an inch can yield substantial differences. I think it's tough to get a representative sample with transducers that can be moved. With those, if someone really likes the sound of the clip, then that's informative, because it demonstrates what can be achieved. If someone does not like the sound, then it could be attributed to what, to that person, is undesirable placement and it might not be that the transducer would be judged undesirable. I applaud your efforts. Thanks for sharing all of this with us.

 

[Adagio]

Now with 100% more ARCO! http://soundcloud.com/jeffdess/sets/double-bass-piezo-mics

Disclamer: My arco playing really sucks, my timing and intonation are off, and I recorded all of this first take. Sorry if you have a bad moment listening to this, but you consider yourself warned.

Again, I recorded this for myself but I am willing to share with the community. My point was not to make a pretty recording but more to perform a benchmark comparison of my gear so I have better insights for making decisions when playing in different contexts.

IMO, only 3 of them could be usable for arco (1, 5 and 6). What do you think?

 

[Fran Diaz]

First of all, thanks a lot for posting these. I think I might choose #6 again, but to tell the truth, wouldn't be happy with this arco tone. What strings are you using?

Now with 100% more ARCO! http://soundcloud.com/jeffdess/sets/double-bass-piezo-mics

Disclamer: My arco playing really sucks, my timing and intonation are off, and I recorded all of this first take. Sorry if you have a bad moment listening to this, but you consider yourself warned.

Again, I recorded this for myself but I am willing to share with the community. My point was not to make a pretty recording but more to perform a benchmark comparison of my gear so I have better insights for making decisions when playing in different contexts.

IMO, only 3 of them could be usable for arco (1, 5 and 6). What do you think?

 

[DaveAceofBass]

The OP has yet to tell us which is which!

 

[longfinger]

Hmm.

I'm not sure if I like how the mics were recorded. #4 seems poorly done, so much noise. Levels peaking? Same with #5. #1 seems to be the only 'acceptable one' recording wise.

But also, I don't think the P/U recordings should be RAW either. They are piezo p/u, not mics. When I go to Garageband with a FC p/u, I make use of the modeling features of GB to get a better sound.

One of your pictures has what looks like an Audio Technica LDC mic, maybe an AT2020 or AT2035? Use that please and post it up.

 

[Adagio]

What strings are you using?

E&A are Spiro Weich, D&G are Oliv
My bow is a Gollihur's Brazilwood, black hair.

I'm sure other folks out there get way better results than I do: my arco playing is truly awful.

 

[Adagio]

Hmm.
But also, I don't think the P/U recordings should be RAW either. They are piezo p/u, not mics. When I go to Garageband with a FC p/u, I make use of the modeling features of GB to get a better sound.

I rarely use zero EQ as well. It's just that I wanted to record a neutral sample, so I could reamp the sound clips and play around with it.

One of your pictures has what looks like an Audio Technica LDC mic, maybe an AT2020 or AT2035? Use that please and post it up.

Yes, I believe it's an AT mic. Unfortunately, it belongs to a studio and I don't have access to this mic. Sorry if it was misleading, I just wanted a cover image to carry the "bass recordings" meaning.

 

[Adagio]

Okay, the wait is over! Here are the answers:

• Sample 1 - My usual sound, which is a blend of the CAD, the Ehrlund and the FC.
• Sample 2 - DIY Schatten EP-01 soundboard transducer mounted on a cedar wood piece
• Sample 3 - Fishman Full Circle (threads up)
• Sample 4 - Geoff004 RS Mic, treble side (modded so it's mounted on the bridge with a tuner clip)
• Sample 5 - CAD GLX-1200 Cardiod Mic - Less than 2 feet away from the treble side
• Sample 6 - Ehrlund Contact Mic with its preamp
• Sample 7 - David Gage Realist Wood
• Sample 8 - Ehrlund Contact Mic with the EDB1

I also updated my Soundcloud with more samples (new locations for the CAD, Ehrlund and Schatten - See attached pictures).


Findings
(These are my personal conclusions, you might as well disagree!)

Piezos (2-3-7)

• I never liked piezos that much, but comparing them confirms that I will not use them for anything else than live monitoring.
• I like the Full Circle better than the Realist. The latter will be for sale soon!
• I lost the strings' character with those PU. Steel string, gut string, synthetic string, they are all the same!
• While the Schatten sounds more woody, it's quite unfocused. Moreover, it transmits all the little "friction" sounds (hand against the neck, my clothes against the back of the bass, etc.) This one, I won't use either.
• I've tried to reamp the Full Circle through my EA Doubler and record it with different settings, so I could restore the acoustic nature of the source. All of these tests were worst than the original.

Mics (4-5)

• The last clip I added with the mic wrapped under the bridge is a revelation (5.2). I did this test to emulate a live setting and I never imagined it would sound (arguably) better than in front of my bass, on a stand.
• The CAD offers the most constant quality between pizz and arco.
• Geoff's mic is way too noisy for recording. Because of its low sensitivity, there is no other possible location for it, and directly in front of the ff is not the best spot for a mic.

Contact Mic (6-8)

• OMG this pickup really shines! I can't believe I almost parted with it!
• The sound reproduce the strings' character accurately, it's easy for me to hear the growl of the steel and the gut "ping" of the Oliv (even though it is subtle with those strings).
• The second location as recorded in 2.2 and 8.2, well... it sucks! I can get a usable live sound out of it when playing with the EQ, but recording it straight yields poor results.
• The Ehrlund preamp really does improve the sound. But when playing with the EQ on the Headway I've come to similiar results. Still, not as good as with the matching preamp.
• When it comes to arco, I think I prefer the Ehrlund over a mic!
• Both pizz and arco are amongst my favorite sound clips.

About my "usual sound" (#1), it's really the mix of the Ehrlund and the mic that creates the balance. I don't think the FC really made a difference in the setting I recorded. I'll leave it on my bass for now, but if I can play with the band with just my Ehrlund and the mic... it might as well disappear!

Final thoughts: The Ehrlund is a keeper, I like the CAD but I'd like to experiment with different mics, perhaps a DPA 4099?

Again, I hope this will be useful to those who are shopping for one of these item. To me, it was really enlightening! I'm glad I took the time to do this, my experiments are far from over but I fell I have a better understanding of each device now. Well that's about it... I should be going now, my arco technique needs immediate attention!

 

[Fran Diaz]

Okay, the wait is over! Here are the answers:

• Sample 1 - My usual sound, which is a blend of the CAD, the Ehrlund and the FC.
• Sample 2 - DIY Schatten EP-01 soundboard transducer mounted on a cedar wood piece
• Sample 3 - Fishman Full Circle (threads up)
• Sample 4 - Geoff004 RS Mic, treble side (modded so it's mounted on the bridge with a tuner clip)
• Sample 5 - CAD GLX-1200 Cardiod Mic - Less than 2 feet away from the treble side
• Sample 6 - Ehrlund Contact Mic with its preamp
• Sample 7 - David Gage Realist Wood
• Sample 8 - Ehrlund Contact Mic with the EDB1

I also updated my Soundcloud with more samples (new locations for the CAD, Ehrlund and Schatten - See attached pictures).


Findings
(These are my personal conclusions, you might as well disagree!)

Piezos (2-3-7)

• I never liked piezos that much, but comparing them confirms that I will not use them for anything else than live monitoring.
• I like the Full Circle better than the Realist. The latter will be for sale soon!
• I lost the strings' character with those PU. Steel string, gut string, synthetic string, they are all the same!
• While the Schatten sounds more woody, it's quite unfocused. Moreover, it transmits all the little "friction" sounds (hand against the neck, my clothes against the back of the bass, etc.) This one, I won't use either.
• I've tried to reamp the Full Circle through my EA Doubler and record it with different settings, so I could restore the acoustic nature of the source. All of these tests were worst than the original.

Mics (4-5)

• The last clip I added with the mic wrapped under the bridge is a revelation (5.2). I did this test to emulate a live setting and I never imagined it would sound (arguably) better than in front of my bass, on a stand.
• The CAD offers the most constant quality between pizz and arco.
• Geoff's mic is way too noisy for recording. Because of its low sensitivity, there is no other possible location for it, and directly in front of the ff is not the best spot for a mic.

Contact Mic (6-8)

• OMG this pickup really shines! I can't believe I almost parted with it!
• The sound reproduce the strings' character accurately, it's easy for me to hear the growl of the steel and the gut "ping" of the Oliv (even though it is subtle with those strings).
• The second location as recorded in 2.2 and 8.2, well... it sucks! I can get a usable live sound out of it when playing with the EQ, but recording it straight yields poor results.
• The Ehrlund preamp really does improve the sound. But when playing with the EQ on the Headway I've come to similiar results. Still, not as good as with the matching preamp.
• When it comes to arco, I think I prefer the Ehrlund over a mic!
• Both pizz and arco are amongst my favorite sound clips.

About my "usual sound" (#1), it's really the mix of the Ehrlund and the mic that creates the balance. I don't think the FC really made a difference in the setting I recorded. I'll leave it on my bass for now, but if I can play with the band with just my Ehrlund and the mic... it might as well disappear!

Final thoughts: The Ehrlund is a keeper, I like the CAD but I'd like to experiment with different mics, perhaps a DPA 4099?

Again, I hope this will be useful to those who are shopping for one of these item. To me, it was really enlightening! I'm glad I took the time to do this, my experiments are far from over but I fell I have a better understanding of each device now. Well that's about it... I should be going now, my arco technique needs immediate attention!

Thanks for all the time and effort. I chose #6 as my favorite for both arco and pizz so it seems like the Ehrlund is the right one for me. Luckily, I already own it so it seems like I saved a lot of money trying pickups . Now, should I go for the Ehrlund preamp or get a different brand.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Thanks for taking the time to do this.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Wow, my favorite sound is a mic for $50? I gotta get me one of dose. Does it need phantom power?

Funny I only got the FC right.

Thanks.

 

[martinc]

Adagio:

Too bad you were not able to use the real Schatten bass pickup.....the RB-1. I like it much better than the BassMax and the RS on my bass. I would have liked to see how it did against your selection of pickups.
Anyway....thanks for doing the tests!

 

[geoffbassist]

Thanks a lot Adagio. Very interesting project.
Cheers Geoff

 

[dukeorock]

I'm seriously disappointed with this test...

Mostly because I have to buy an Ehrlund now

Seriously...thanks for doing that!

 

[Adagio]

Wow, my favorite sound is a mic for $50? I gotta get me one of dose. Does it need phantom power?

Funny I only got the FC right.

Thanks.

This mic requires phantom yes. I recorded this with 48v from the preamp in my mixer, although I also tried once with my EDB1 (18v) and I liked it better than my with Doubler. Maybe it's better to underpower it since it is so sensitive and it lacks a dB pad feature?

I would have liked to compare it against higher end mics, but that's all I got for now. In a studio, I always record with a larger condenser mic in front of my bass and another cardioid pointed at the fingerboard. When I stumbled upon the CAD in a local music store, I thought it would be good enough for doing the latter. All things considered, I think it's a pretty solid deal.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I did a few comparisons like this a few years back. In hindsight, if I had it to do all over again, I'd run each source through an amp (assuming the comparison was for backline purposes) and simply normalize all tracks to the same volume. Most pickups sound unnatural into the board, and only shine when there's some air involved.