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Double Bass Yet another tuner post
- Thread starter Who da Ville
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The Sonic Research Turbotuner is without a doubt the most accurate tuner on the market right now. It only comes in a pedal form, so I use it with a pickup, mostly during gigs, but is accurate enough that it replaced my Peterson for bench work.
j.
www.condino.com
Www.kaybassrepair.com
j.
www.condino.com
Www.kaybassrepair.com
I have a bass with a low B string and find the smartphone ap TE Tuner will tune down to that B. It shows the frequency it is reading so you know. Other features are a metronome and a good frequency analyzer that shows if your bass is stronger on the fundamental or a harmonic. Doesn't work very well in noisy environments as it uses the phones microphone.
I bought one of these for my phone. Works great. Amazon.com: Peterson PitchGrabber Mobile Tuner: Musical Instruments
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With absolutely no sarcasm intended, is there an issue with using a pitch fork and your ears?
I used to snobbishly think that good musicians shouldn't need a tuner. Then I went to a chamber concert where the legendary Homer Mensch (the guy who taught the guys) was the sole bassist. First thing he did when he walked onstage was put a big old fashioned korg on his stand and check his tuning.
"Who can point me to a tuner that can consistently hear the low E?"
Orchestra guy response:
One thing you can try before buying a new tuner is to shift the bow up towards the fingerboard when you have trouble registering the lower strings.
It seems counter-intuitive and also counter to modern technique which has us moving ever closer to the bridge, but it does seem to help.
I got this from an old Korg manual.
Only explanation I can think of is that maybe tuner becomes overwhelmed with false harmonics closer to bridge. I know when I use the octave harmonic to tune my low B (Peterson Tuner), the open B shows off pitch. Can't remember if that happened with new string, but with the cost of low B's, new strings don't happen very often.
Maintaining steady/even speed/pressure on bow can help too. Vary them and you'll vary the pitch. Aim for an "average" playing volume.
Which also goes to the question of why an electronic tuner (topic is drifting a bit)?
1. We don't have the luxury of clear open fifths like the rest of the string section.
2. Noise on stage during warmup (i.e. trombones rattling your skull). If you wait for Orchestra A to tune, you may not get it done in time (especially with 5 strings). And that oboe player is using a tuner to give you that A.
3. Murky and/or false harmonics, together with the inefficiency of left hand having to jump back and forth between tuning machine and string nodal points.
4. Experience. Mine is largely with regional (ROPA) orchestras and can't speak for higher level groups. But I've found almost invariably the section sounds more in tune when all the players use a tuner.
Orchestra guy response:
One thing you can try before buying a new tuner is to shift the bow up towards the fingerboard when you have trouble registering the lower strings.
It seems counter-intuitive and also counter to modern technique which has us moving ever closer to the bridge, but it does seem to help.
I got this from an old Korg manual.
Only explanation I can think of is that maybe tuner becomes overwhelmed with false harmonics closer to bridge. I know when I use the octave harmonic to tune my low B (Peterson Tuner), the open B shows off pitch. Can't remember if that happened with new string, but with the cost of low B's, new strings don't happen very often.
Maintaining steady/even speed/pressure on bow can help too. Vary them and you'll vary the pitch. Aim for an "average" playing volume.
Which also goes to the question of why an electronic tuner (topic is drifting a bit)?
1. We don't have the luxury of clear open fifths like the rest of the string section.
2. Noise on stage during warmup (i.e. trombones rattling your skull). If you wait for Orchestra A to tune, you may not get it done in time (especially with 5 strings). And that oboe player is using a tuner to give you that A.
3. Murky and/or false harmonics, together with the inefficiency of left hand having to jump back and forth between tuning machine and string nodal points.
4. Experience. Mine is largely with regional (ROPA) orchestras and can't speak for higher level groups. But I've found almost invariably the section sounds more in tune when all the players use a tuner.
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I wonder if a gentle pizz at the 1st partial harmonic would remove the possibility of bow speed/pressure from the equation?
After the initial Pizzicato Freakout, my tuner, (a Korg GT-12 with a "needle/VU meter" display), displays a fairly stable and consistent reading of that 1st partial, which is, mathematically speaking, a fairly reliable indicator of the Fundamental open string pitch.
I have a low C-extension, which doesn't seem to bother the GT-12.
Thanks.
In an orchestra section I have problems to identify my own string sound from the others. That's why I prefer a tuner in this situation and generally on stage to get quicker in tune than by ear. In rehearsals where I am the only bass player, I always tune by ear.
My tuner, the Korg Pitchhawk G2 works fine even for the low B if clipped to the bridge.
Clipped to the pegbox the low E is still fine, but the low B is not well captured at this position.
I always use it clipped to the bass bridge foot side and can see it well and can play nicely when it stays there.
My tuner, the Korg Pitchhawk G2 works fine even for the low B if clipped to the bridge.
Clipped to the pegbox the low E is still fine, but the low B is not well captured at this position.
I always use it clipped to the bass bridge foot side and can see it well and can play nicely when it stays there.
One issue is false strings/harmonics.
Stings would have to be perfectly homogeneous for math to work out (which most strings are not, especially as they get older) and even then there are weird "stiffening" effects on vibration close to bridge and nut (concept from piano tuning) which can skew relations of harmonics to fundamental.
Didn't want to be just talking out of a book so checked out your idea on my bass with Peterson Tuner:
-- Pizz: sustained harmonics were generally sharp relative to open string (one string flat).
-- Arco: same harmonic relation as above plus all arco open strings sharper than sustained pizz open strings.
Note though I'm using a Peterson Strobe, accurate to 0.1 cent but no actual indication of how many cents off.
Detection accuracy of yours (my old one too, RIP) is 1 cent.
For what it's worth: It takes about a 6-12 cent pitch change for most people to detect a difference (unless both pitches played together where you'll hear the beat frequency). If I remember right, Helmholtz found even the best trained musicians could only discriminate 4 cents.
So it may be moot.
But the deal about "average" volume when tuning for me is that almost all my playing is arco. Faster (louder) bows make sharper pitches. If I land on an open string, I want it to work most of the time.
bengreen,
I guess I approach this as attempting to confirm that the open strings are (relatively) in tune, (with each other, as well as the piano, usually,) while "at rest". As a primarily pizz player who practices with the bow, I like to feel as if the instrument (at rest), is compatible with the overall tuning of the piano - what happens after that, is anyone's guess! Using the 1st partial, while not perfect, seems to me to be the most stable reading of the open string - other than reading the open string, which can sometimes be erratic.
So, do you tune your open strings a bit "flat" in anticipation of the arco tendency to sharpen the pitch? I've not heard of that approach.
Thanks for your time, interest and civility.
Don't need to. I'm playing arco and tuning arco. Same same.
My personal issue is that I simply can't discriminate the pitches in the harmonics on the lower strings well enough to reliably tune with them. Too many loud jobs over too many years. So I use a tuner on the open strings ahead of Orchestra A (as do most of my colleagues, some of whom play a hell of a lot better than I do, so I've taken that as permission to stop feeling guilty about using a tuner...mostly).
But when the string section is tuning on stage, I do check my open strings against theirs to make sure they mesh and don't take the tuners word as gospel.
If you're primarily playing with a pianist, you have a different issue than being in tune to some arbitrary reference (like A440, or whatever value an ensemble prefers). You have to be in tune with that piano.
In orchestra, when we're doing a piano concerto, the piano actually is tuned prior to the first performance, so you can usually get away with tuning ahead of time with your meter and not have any surprises when the piano gives the "A".
In most other situations the piano is what it is.
If you have access to the piano, you can take your tuner and check it out ahead of time. Adjust the tuners A away from 440 to some other value that will center your needle on the piano's A if necessary. Or just play one or all of your open pitches together with the piano and match them up.
I guess the gist is that you're dealing with a moving target anyway. I'm a nerd and enjoy doing trivial pursuit in acoustics and overthinking things to death. But I try to stay grounded enough to realize that I am probably thinking too much.
Bottom line: if your tuner's giving you grief registering the open strings, maybe you just need a new tuner (which brings us back to the topic of this forum). The nerd in me remembers I loved that tuner of yours because of the cool design and features. The musician in me remembers I didn't end up really using it much because I had problems with it.
If there's a Guitar Center's near you, they're pretty good about returns and/or letting you try stuff there. If you bring your bass in it'll be a novelty for them. Find a clip on tuner that works there with all the electric guitars blaring around you and you'll know you've got the right one.
My best experience has been with the Peterson clip. I love the strobe interface, but most folks I lend it to hand it right back after a few seconds of struggling to understand the display. They want a needle. And it is pricey (US$70).
Thanks, bengreen.
Lots to consider. I really like the GT-12, too, BTW.
I also use this tuner, but only at home:
Lots to consider. I really like the GT-12, too, BTW.
I also use this tuner, but only at home:
Thanks, bengreen.
Lots to consider. I really like the GT-12, too, BTW.
I also use this tuner, but only at home:
Don. The TC clip works very well. About as good as you'll find for noisy gigs. Also, its not a large piece of gear sticking up off of the bridge.
I use my GT-12 with either a piezo clip/wire (for acoustic gigs), or connected to my Walter Woods, when amplified. I use it mostly to overcome loud gig situations, never at home while practicing. I use my piano or tuning fork at home for practice sessions. I don't use it or look at it while playing, at all - it's removed and/or turned off after tuning. I do re-check the tuning between sets.
The Peterson (big blue box), I use for set up of my BGs and to check the C-ext. and chromatic stops on my DB.
I know it's popular to leave the small clip-on types "on" at all times - some of my students do that. I'm not a big fan of that practice, but that's just me.
Thanks.
