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You Can Build It

#261
I just went through this with a used four wire pickup that came without any wiring diagrams. The company that built them is out of business and their website was disabled. Given four wires you can figure out the winding loops without too many combinations. Then to find the wiring direction, you connect your VOM in volt mode to the windings, lay a metal rod (or anything metal really) on the pickup and lift it up. Watch to see if the voltage is positive or negative, that will tell you which end is which so you can match them up for humbucking (or whatever way you want to connect them).

Explained better here:
 
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#265
Which kind of water-based polyurethane did you use? There are so many different kinds and they seldom behave similarly to one another. :) In the early days, what you're describing above was pretty common to find, that said, WB is a whole different kettle of fish, and the approach to using it has to be adapted. I've found that depending on the type, it can't be laid down like oil based finishes. The WB thread is long (as it's old), but there is some great progression-of-product-development information in there. :)

Last comment, are you sure you can't spray oil over WB? Once it's cured, I can't understand why not - now water over oil is a problem in most cases, as the waterbased sometimes won't cure over the oil, even some drying oils. :)
 
#266
:D many excellent points. It's pretty much in the name of low voc. I wrote my brother, an organic chemist, and he confirmed that isopropyl alcohol will be more likely to dissolve water based vs oil based finishes. Full cure should help, but I guess it's a risk, and I can fully understand sticking with the tried and true... :)
 
#268
The ultimate truth is that we can’t keep dumping crap into the atmosphere, or absorbing toxins through our lungs or skin without health effects. The CA VOC regulations forced a lot of people out of their comfort zone of endless pollution and indifference about what it’s doing to us. The WB finishes are not as “good” as the traditional poisonous stuff, but they are improving rapidly. As a novice builder, I have no investment in the Pre VOC finishes or equipment, and have decided, for once in my life, not to poison myself or anybody around me in the pursuit of a hobby. It’s just guitars, nothing truly important in the larger scheme of things. Like it or not, the US and most of Europe is going to phase out these VOC finishes, might as well accept it and learn how to use them as they steadily improve.
 
#269
Gary_M said:
Seems as though your finishing problems may stem from painting with a very broad brush. Food for thought. :)
Click to expand...

Just came back and read my post... seems pretty harsh, and it wasn't intended that way. What I'm driving at is that it seems that you may be expecting the working qualities of other finishes to be the same or similar to laying down oil based poly. They aren't. I'm not trying to be obtuse here... each type of finish literally requires has its own quirks and needs its own finishing schedule, and they all have their learning curve.

For example, you can thin oil based poly 50/50 with MS and have a fantastic wiping application. The same does not hold true for water borne poly... (thinning it 50/50 with water does not make water borne poly a wipe on finish)

On another note, if you are consistently having problems with finishes beading up and fish eyes, you have a contamination problem. If this is occurring when spraying, you may have oil in the air line, or water, or both. If this is occurring during a brushed or wiped application, then you need to thoroughly clean the surface with naptha or other agent. Always consider your work surface as a source of contamination... Those non-skid "sanding pads" (shelf liners) are infamous for transferring oils to your work piece.

Anyway, good luck, I hope things get better for you on the finishing front.
 
#271
I briefly considered trying the Solarez UV cure stuff, but chickened out when i heard about the fumes. This guy from Highline guitars seemed to get good results from it, but i havent seen him use it on recent builds, i think he's gone back to WB or newer versions of Solarez. Rickenbacker is the only company i know for sure thats using UV cure clearcoat, and they have had finish failure issues for at least the last 10 years. I agree that UV cure in an affordable, easy to use, and reasonably non toxic form would be the Grail finish. In the meantime you use whats available, and what you can tolerate ethically and health wise. Interesting watching this stuff develope in real time.



 
#272
alder said:
...
View attachment 3354153

Look at that UV mess. It took a lot of brushing to get that to lay down long enough to cure it. This is a first coat on bare stained wood. ( I'm not a complete idiot, the stain was well-dried. ) You'd think it would get a grip on bare wood, but it is equally bad even over itself. And the can actually has a guitar on the label. Hopefully in a few years UV-cure poly will behave better than this. It does have a smell but that goes away pretty fast.

...
Click to expand...

To me, this seems like it is a result of not putting down a sealer under the finish (after the stain). It looks like it is soaking into the softer part of the figured wood.
 
#273
@alder ,
I toured a ukulele factory that uses a UV-cured finish on their highest-end model (~$5k! yes, for a ukulele). We got to see them before, during, and after curing. They looked absolutely amazing immediately after curing. Shrug.

The reason I had asked if you used eye protection while curing is because the light they use does require eye protection.

- John
 
#274
I strongly recommend a good quality foam brush (I use Wooster 2" or 3" from the big box lumber companies). No hairs to come off, no bubbles. You apply it pretty thick, then give some ultra light lengthwise passes to even it out. On my first bass, I never saw a fish eye, bubble or blister. Put on 6-7 heavy coats, turning the bass (in a home made holder) so that I was always applying to as horizontal a surface as I could get. Extra in the curved (edge) areas since many people experience a sand-through on the curves. Level sanded starting at 600, dry.

If you give up on water-based this advice will not be helpful for you, but might reassure some potential users that a nice water based gloss finish can be achieved without spray. Like you, I tried to spray (for the first time ever) and it was no good, but I eventually figured out that I had misunderstood the advice here on TB, so some day I will try it again.

As for long term durability, after 2 years I can't see any cracks or crazing, and with moderate playing it still looks new. I won't treat it like a floor. The bass has been through 2 bone dry summers (110-115F max temp, humidity below 10%) in India, followed by 4-month long monsoon seasons with high humidity. Could there be a tougher test for anything made of wood? Doesn't hurt that I used wenge, Honduras mahogany and teak as the main woods, all being much more stable than e.g. maple.

I hope someone benefits from this alternate viewpoint on water-based finishes(!)
 
#275
I agree it would be a shame to give up totally on water base poly. It does need the right application method, but that's true of any finish. Like @JayGunn I apply it with a foam brush.

It does have some distinct advantages over oil based poly besides the lack of fumes, too - for one thing, it can be crystal clear, while oil based poly will always have a slight amber tint. On some projects, I used water-based poly because I want zero color in the finish. And the quick drying time is nice. I can be done finishing a project in a few days instead of a week or two.

I'm not sure you're correct on the durability, either. Yes, there may technically be differences in durability between water based and oil based poly, but I don't see that playing out in real life. I have a coffee table made from a live edge slab of maple, I built it probably 20 years ago. It's finished with water based poly - just normal Minwax stuff from the hardware store, not one of the fancy pro brands. It's seen plenty of spilled water, coffee, spilled alcohol of every type, sometimes left to soak over night (I was in college when I made it and I had rambunctious room mates), and with a bunch of kids growing up in this house, who have decided the living room coffee table is now their craft table, it's been covered in paint, glue, glitter, crayon, marker, pencil, and pen more times than I can count. I've been regularly scrubbing it clean with harsh chemicals for it's whole life (we live by Clorox wipes). If I showed you a photo of it, you'd think I'd just finished it yesterday, the finish is in perfect shape.

I'm not saying this to start an argument, because it's pretty clear you've made up your mind - and that's fine, we're all allowed to do that - but I do think you slightly misunderstood or misrepresented the product, which is too bad.
 
#276
That looks pretty sweet! It's probably old-hat to most TB builders, but I'm Born Again Tru Oil for transparent natural finishes. I haven't managed to eff it up yet, a major accomplishment. I used Watco for years, but it takes forever to fully cure (and stinks while it does), and it never gets beyond satin sheen. Tru-Oil does amber the wood, however, so it's not the right tool for every job. That pine looks great with the poly.
 

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