• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

You can't trust anyone

M

moody

Feb 1, 2003
1,412
836
50
Blacktown (sydney) Australia
#1
I had a gig about a week and a half ago. It went reasonably well with some technical issues (two of my bass pedals died in the course of the night). I sing the vast majority of the harmony and backing vocals.

We didn't have much time to set up after the first band and no sound check. I had a friend of mine who knows her way around a desk doing her best to balance the vocal mix.

Among other things, the bits and pieces vocal only PA provided did not include a seperate monitor mix. All we had was the main mix in our monitors. In order to be balanced that meant that we could hear the lead vocal but couldn't hear my own backing vocals. I had no idea how my backing sounded out front.

This was the first time using a Voicelive play pedal for my backing vocals to put harmony in a few areas. During our set break I asked a couple of people including the friend running sound, another sound professional and a few friends how the harmony pedal was sounding. Everybody said it was sounding good. In one case, from a person who originally suggested me getting it, I was told that the harmony from the pedal was a touch too loud.

I got an audience recording of the gig today and listened to it. My voice is there but none of the harmonies from the unit. I think I plugged the wrong output of the pedal to the PA and none of the effected vocal was heard. It still sounds decent but doesn't have that extra sparkle from the extra harmony in the performance that I had been hoping for.

If one person had said 'I really don't hear any of the harmony you are talking about' I would have investigated and fixed it, but everyone just said how good it sounded.
 
#5
charlie monroe said:
Is it reasonable for you to expect your friends to be able to detect the lack of "extra sparkle" you were looking for?
Click to expand...

I clearly mentioned that it was a harmony pedal producing an additional harmony voice to my own. At least two of them know of and have heard such things before. If it had worked it would have been obviously (but not obnoxiously) present.
 
#8
You are right. You can't trust anyone.

I've walked off stage after a complete trainwreck of a set and been told how great we were. I kinda thought it was sarcasm but later i determined people just dont know jack.

Also most people are jerks and will steal from you or worse as soon as your back is turned. Most of the time it's your best friend too.

Fwiw, ime, ymmv etc...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sixgunn, HolmeBass and smokescreens
#10
moody said:
It would be nice if more people gave constructive feedback. My wife does, but she doesn't know our music or live sound all that well.
Click to expand...
Your wife has a vested interest... the challenge for you seems to be that "good" is a relative term.
The feedback you were giving by folks may have been honest and what THEY heard was good - from their perspective - not knowing that their definition differed from yours.
Having gigged solidly for the last 15 yrs (mostly at the "A" venues with my share of "dark bars/dives", but not a touring-pro) I've reached the same conclusion as @Nev375 about most folk discerning opinion on live music quality. If it's recognizable and not blatantly horrendous, 98% are clueless. The other 98% are sound engineers!!
My experience is you will probably NOT get your non-musician friends to be critical - unless it's a complete disaster, and maybe not even then. They either hear what they think is OK, or possibly not. If not.. they are unlikely to dissect it and provide constructive feedback. You might hear "you guys didn't seem "on" tonight" when you thought you kicked *ss up on stage. Conversely you might also get the opposite, being told you are awesome, when you felt it was a trainwreck, or things were blatantly missing! Been on the receiving end of that - a lot!
It's a matter of perception. The band will ALWAYS be their own worst critic - or should be!
Aiming for perfection is wonderful.. but it's another relative term ;)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Gearhead17
#11
moody said:
I got an audience recording of the gig today and listened to it. My voice is there but none of the harmonies from the unit. I think I plugged the wrong output of the pedal to the PA and none of the effected vocal was heard.
Click to expand...
that may be why the majority thought it sounded good ;)
moody said:
In one case, from a person who originally suggested me getting it, I was told that the harmony from the pedal was a touch too loud.
Click to expand...
but OK, that is funny. people do indeed hear what they expect to hear, whether it's really there or not.
 
  • Like
Reactions: s0c9
#13
Two things come to mind: Is it possible that the audience recording you listened to had phase issues, or just bad placement? I trust my own ears first, too, but some rooms we play can lose the weirdest things in spots. Was it a complete recording? As in, the entire show? It's also possible the pedal WAS too loud, and your friend--the one you conscripted to run sound--turned it down at a point.

Second, speaking of your own ears--I feel a little bad for your friends. I understand you didn't have time for a soundcheck, but... You brought new gear (untested?), possibly plugged it in wrong, and you're blaming folks for not prioritizing your concerns over their own enjoyment of the evening?

TB is where we come to rant; you had a bad night, and I am sincerely sympathetic. It bugs me for weeks if we have to play just without a soundcheck, even if I have no indication that there were any issues. Props for getting through the night!

But give your friends the benefit of the doubt. They told you that they thought it sounded good. Maybe they were being sincere, through potentially limited lenses... but either way, the thread title is a little harsh; you asked them to stand over your shoulder and watch you make widgets. Not really their job.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Groove Doctor, Matthew_84 and Gabbs
#14
moody said:
In order to be balanced that meant that we could hear the lead vocal but couldn't hear my own backing vocals.
Click to expand...

that does not compute. a balanced mix would have both voices at appropriate levels, unless you mean that without the band the blend of the two vocals at a good level but with the band the quieter backing vocal was obscured by the band and that was the cause of you not hearing yourself. and if thats the case maybe the band was too loud in comparison to the vocals, both lead and backing?
 
#15
The audience often can't tell why something sounds good, they just know that they like it or not.

They do notice when something is obviously wrong---- No vocals at all, xxxxx is way to loud, the vocals suck, massive amounts of feedback...
 
#16
sometimes you can hate them, but honest people really help out in these situations.

i have the same problem as you have all mentioned. you just finish a set that you were unhappy with and people tell you it was great. some are being nice and some don't know any better.

we are lucky when our banjo player's wife comes to our shows because she is very honest and pulls no punches. she is happy to tell us after a song that the mando is too soft or the guitar is too loud.

for those of us too cheap to pay a sound guy, this is super helpful. i hate flying blind at shows and everyone you ask says, "you guys sound great!" come on....there has to be something that needs tweaking!
 
#17
True friends will tell you when it sucks. A constructive human being will take those comments and use them to get better. People telling you the truth actually help you.

On the other hand, most of the audience has no clue about technical stuff, they just want to get entertained. We are the one noticing all the small (or big) booboos.

While it sometimes may not be perfect for the band on stage, it's perfectly fine for the peasants in the audience.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Groove Doctor and Jeff Elkins
#18
moody said:
It would be nice if more people gave constructive feedback. My wife does, but she doesn't know our music or live sound all that well.
Click to expand...

Mrs. Goose doesn't pull any punches with me and her observations have made me a better player.

Non-critical listeners and sycophants have their place in this world but not where the Funk is concerned!
 
  • Like
Reactions: bigfatbass
#19
Most people just can't listen that critically. They don't have the experience, and even if they do they are not investing the effort. This goes for musicians and sound engineers too, which has always surprised me. Then I meet someone with even better ears than me and they'll point out some feedback or artifacts in a mix/recording that I was not consciously recognizing. Once they point it out I can hear it and amazed I couldn't before. So there is definitely a broad range of "ear quality" and if you're dealing with the general public, their ears are simply not that good. By that I mean that not only can they not differentiate the source of the various sounds they hear, they cannot even differentiate the different sounds. It's just a blended amalgam in which only the most prominent sounds can be differentiated. They can tell if they like something or not, but there proffered reasons for liking/disliking are usually fairly inaccurate in terms of feedback you can actually use to get better.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 13lues and s0c9
#20
If the crowd genuinely thought it sounded good....and told you they thought it did... then that's more than half the battle..... most times people are the opposite and pick apart everything as if they ran sound for Iron Maiden for twenty years. I would take the compliment and positive feedback and chalk it up to a good night, despite what the recording sounds like.. because we are always most critical of our own work.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Matthew_84

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back