I was in a little jam band for a couple of months. What we did sounded good, but the songs we were doing weren't right in several ways (wrong chords in sections, leaving out bridges, things like that). To them, improving what they were doing wrong was a waste of time. I just couldn't go on with them.
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You can't trust anyone
- Thread starter moody
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I was in a little jam band for a couple of months. What we did sounded good, but the songs we were doing weren't right in several ways (wrong chords in sections, leaving out bridges, things like that). To them, improving what they were doing wrong was a waste of time. I just couldn't go on with them.
Not buying the excuses. Need harmonies? Get musicians who can sing. There was a time you didn't get the gig if you couldn't. Now get off my lawn.
In these days of tiny duos and solo artists, extra musicians just for vocals is not really an option. I'd love to have a trio at the side of stage doing all the oohhs and ah's
and just concentrate on the bass parts , but it isn't going to happen.
bigfatbass
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I didn't say extra singers, I mean have people in the band who can sing. I would never even consider a pedal. I'm telling you, the cheese factor of vocal pedals is lost on everybody who uses one, but not on the crowd. Whatever you think you are gaining sonically you give up in lost mojo x10
Truth is, most people are clueless about what's happening in a song. This includes other musicians and myself when I'm just a listener.
Between bad PA mix, originals I may or not know well and cryptic settings used on effects, it is really difficult even for the trained listener to understand what's going on.
I can know wether or not the singing is in tune, if somebody fails at harmony, maybe if the tone isn't right (like an effect or dist that should be there and isn't) or if they miss a part.
The rest is musician cooking, I don't really know what they do.
Between bad PA mix, originals I may or not know well and cryptic settings used on effects, it is really difficult even for the trained listener to understand what's going on.
I can know wether or not the singing is in tune, if somebody fails at harmony, maybe if the tone isn't right (like an effect or dist that should be there and isn't) or if they miss a part.
The rest is musician cooking, I don't really know what they do.
Maybe that's how you generalize your anecdotal experience, but I've seen at least 500 bands that needed harmonies desperately, and if the only way they were getting them tonight meant mixing in a tiny bit of technology—well then, there you are. Universalized anecdotal experience is funny that way.
And the general point of this thread works against the argument that audiences will revolt and storm the stage in disgust when they hear a harmonizer subtly at work in the mix, b/c overwhelmingly that isn't how they'll experience the music unless you've got the harmonizer output cranked in the overall mix. (Or if it's struggling to track a lousy singer, which is a separate problem.)
I get your general point and agree, both in theory and in practice, that excellent live singers trump tech-supplied harmonies. But fighting on principle against ever using any harmonizers, even well-mixed and tracking good singer?
Might as well argue that distortion pedals have no place sullying a guitar signal, or that multi-track recording and digital editing are just crutches that no "real" musician would ever need, or that synthesizers and samplers are abominations before the Lord (of Live Music). Heck, this whole "electric bass" fad will probably pass soon, too, once players just get dedicated enough to put in the time to learn how to play proper bass (I mean, they call it "upright" for a reason). [/joking]
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bigfatbass
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Watching the craft and artistry of your profession endlessly diminished by things like harmonizer pedals is reason enough to get out the soap box, and I already said you kids get off my lawn.
Also, thanks for boiling my 25+ years of playing bass for a living into "my anecdotal experience". My opinion comes from pounding the clubs in a couple dozen states, for almost 30 years. I've never seen anyone use one of those things that didn't make me giggle.
Never said they would storm you in disgust, but if you feel that defensive about it, I cant' help you there. Sounds like cheez denial to me. You know what people did for harmony before pedals, and gigs full of people who can't/won't sing? People sang.
Leaning on electronics to supply those parts is a crutch available only recently, and I will call it out for what it is: A crutch.
I'm not talking about pedal for vocal effect, a la Perry, Tool et al, I'm talking about using a pedal to add a simple harmony. I just think it screams laziness and lowest common denominator.
I stand by my initial assertion: no one has ever said THIS BAND IS GREAT, but what they really need is some canned pedal harmonies. That first part is important. What you are saying is they weren't very good without the pedal. To that I say, then why do they have the gig? Sing more, work harder at it, and find other people willing to do the same. Then the OP would never have to ask if his pedal was loud enough in the mix, right?
Your last paragraph is so slippery slope silly, I'm not even gonna bother.
Also, thanks for boiling my 25+ years of playing bass for a living into "my anecdotal experience". My opinion comes from pounding the clubs in a couple dozen states, for almost 30 years. I've never seen anyone use one of those things that didn't make me giggle.
Never said they would storm you in disgust, but if you feel that defensive about it, I cant' help you there. Sounds like cheez denial to me. You know what people did for harmony before pedals, and gigs full of people who can't/won't sing? People sang.
Leaning on electronics to supply those parts is a crutch available only recently, and I will call it out for what it is: A crutch.
I'm not talking about pedal for vocal effect, a la Perry, Tool et al, I'm talking about using a pedal to add a simple harmony. I just think it screams laziness and lowest common denominator.
I stand by my initial assertion: no one has ever said THIS BAND IS GREAT, but what they really need is some canned pedal harmonies. That first part is important. What you are saying is they weren't very good without the pedal. To that I say, then why do they have the gig? Sing more, work harder at it, and find other people willing to do the same. Then the OP would never have to ask if his pedal was loud enough in the mix, right?
Your last paragraph is so slippery slope silly, I'm not even gonna bother.
Watching the craft and artistry of your profession endlessly diminished by things like harmonizer pedals is reason enough to get out the soap box, and I already said you kids get off my lawn.
Also, thanks for boiling my 25+ years of playing bass for a living into "my anecdotal experience". My opinion comes from pounding the clubs in a couple dozen states, for almost 30 years. I've never seen anyone use one of those things that didn't make me giggle.
Never said they would storm you in disgust, but if you feel that defensive about it, I cant' help you there. Sounds like cheez denial to me. You know what people did for harmony before pedals, and gigs full of people who can't/won't sing? People sang.
Leaning on electronics to supply those parts is a crutch available only recently, and I will call it out for what it is: A crutch.
I'm not talking about pedal for vocal effect, a la Perry, Tool et al, I'm talking about using a pedal to add a simple harmony. I just think it screams laziness and lowest common denominator.
I stand by my initial assertion: no one has ever said THIS BAND IS GREAT, but what they really need is some canned pedal harmonies. That first part is important. What you are saying is they weren't very good without the pedal. To that I say, then why do they have the gig? Sing more, work harder at it, and find other people willing to do the same. Then the OP would never have to ask if his pedal was loud enough in the mix, right?
Your last paragraph is so slippery slope silly, I'm not even gonna bother.
Yes it's a crutch, which doesn't mean I am not going to do it. I am in a 5 piece band with one good lead vocalist, myself as a decent harmony singer and three other really good instrumentalists who can not sing well. Instrumentally I consider myself the least able (Which doesn't mean I am not able). However, I naturally know where and how the harmony parts fit. As a band vocals harmony is our weakest point. (I have been in a band that was very strong vocally, unfortunately very week instrumentally).
We have been trying and trying to get the vocal harmonies sounding good, we do vocal only rehearsals and the guitarist practices his parts. Singing the song 'Poison' for example is tough to the point that if it weren't such an incredibly popular song we probably would have dropped it. Several times there is a lead vocal and an echo (poison). On live versions by the original band there tends to be a lead vocal and two or three harmony voices doing the echo.
I used to take the high harmony of the echo while the guitarist attempted the low. He couldn't pitch it, especially while I was singing the high harmony and ended up with some awful in-between notes.
More recently, I have been taking the low echo while the guitarist takes the third up. He struggles with the notes but he can pitch them, however, it is not strong and not always there at all. (on the live recording I think I hear him twice during the song). It also means that I am doing quick switches between high harmony and low.
I wanna love you, but I better not touch (don't touch) (low harmony echo)
I wanna hold you, but my senses tell me to stop (high harmony over tell me to stop)
I wanna kiss you, but I want it too much (too much) (low harmony echo)
I wanna taste you, but your lips are venomous poison (poison) (high harmony over lips are venomous then low harmony on the echo)
Using the vocal effect I am able to sing the low harmony throughout, doubling the lead vocal where I would normally do the high harmony (rather than tap dancing through the song). The guitarist is still singing the high harmony but it is reinforced by my electronic harmony which gives him more confidence.
Watching the craft and artistry of your profession endlessly diminished by things like harmonizer pedals is reason enough to get out the soap box, and I already said you kids get off my lawn.
History suggests that every generation of musicians finds in the tools, practices, and songs of next generation signs of the endless diminishment of music's craft and artistry.
bigfatbass
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Sounds like the tools are right there in the band, they just need to work harder at it. Being good at music takes work. Replacing the most basic harmony singing with a pedal does indeed diminish the craft. History may suggest it because sometimes it's true.
s0c9
Supporting Member
With all the above having been said... hypothetically speaking - what would be the best approach to removing the harmonizer from the lead vocalist who believes that its an absolute necessity - since they believe that other band members (as indicated by OP) can't sing and the material isn't "right" without it?
There is no pedal on the lead vocal. He wouldn't know how to use it. I can sing and I use the pedal to fill out backing vocals where more than one is needed (mostly echos not singing at the same time as the lead vocal.
s0c9
Supporting Member
so how do you get you pedal to do harmonies to your harmony.. assuming you are not singing the same line as lead vocal?
Which pedal are you using as most require an input signal (guitar/bass/keys/midi) off which to base the harmony.
I can't answer for the OP, but I got the impression that he has the pedal set for a fixed interval, which wouldn't need any more input signal than his voice. Which would explain why sometimes it's critical that the note coming from the pedal get heard, as he may have it set for, say, a 6th interval--and he has to sing the 5th of the chord to trigger the 3rd of the triad, above him. In that case, his 5th coming through is likely less critical than the 3rd, so if the pedal's not working, the song's harmonic structure won't be either.
@moody - if you've invested the time to relearn your harmony parts to trigger the pedal, props to you. I've had to switch from tenor to baritone on a dozen songs in less than a week because we got a sub for one of our guys, and he sang a different part. I can't imagine switching, then also having to adjust my notes to control the other voice. I'm also starting to see where your stress might be coming from... sounds like you're shouldering a lot.
Props, man.
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A fixed interval would be unlikely to work as the interval changes (e.g usually between major and minor third). What you describe in the first paragraph sounds like a bit of a nightmare - I am not going to make it impossible for myself.
I know that every single advertisement for harmonisers of this kind talk about using guitars to get chord information or plugging into midi. I actually don't think that that method is used anywhere near as much as they say.
I have the unit set by key to different songs, sometimes this is somewhat trial and error as there are 3 major and 3 minor scales that the unit can be set to and some work better in different songs than others. For some songs I have played the harmonies on keyboard to figure out what scale actually fits. I audition all the harmonies at home against rehearsal recordings of our band.
For most songs I have it set for a single 'high' harmony (there is high, higher, low, lower, octave up, octave down) which is essentially a third up from my voice in the current key. While the unit has microphones they are not generally supposed to be reliable in a loud rock band with drums setting. (sitting on the floor it picks up too much kick etc. and not enough key information). If you can program the keys correctly then it also doesn't matter if someone stuffs the chord.
Most of the time the harmony lines that I need harmonised are me singing alone (echos, ahhs, etc.). If I am harmonising directly to the lead vocal I leave the pedal off or, on rare occasions, drop to the lead for a half a line. While the fifth or seventh harmony would still be in key and not be a trainwreck it would probably not sound right.
Almost all the pedals that require an input signal can also be set manually. I think the only exception is the TC Helicon harmony singer that can't be set manually. (please correct me if I'm wrong).
As an audience member, regardless if I knew every part in the song (lead vocals, all harmonies, guitars, bass, keyboard and drums), my mind tends to fill-in-the-blanks of what isn't there and tolerates what I'm actually hearing.
Even if your harmonizer-pedal wasn't working, as long as I heard some type of harmony, the song is still acceptable. Until I actually hear your band play with the harmonizer and I take a mental note of it actually working, I might think differently as in, "Oh, this would've been the time the harmonizer-pedal would've sounded like this."
When I hear other bands, especially when I have no idea how they rehearse nor really care, I'm not going to take notes on every critique per song. They ask, "We sound good?" My response would usually be, "Yeah." I'm not going to get into the detailed explanations of things I probably already forgot. It'll usually just be general things like, "Singer/guitarist/drummer is too loud." Just fix the major problems to keep the audience around.
When I play, I usually get from audience members, "I can't hear your harmonies." They're not going to go into vocal lessons on my vibrato, using my diaphragm, or suggesting a different microphone at a specific EQ-settings. And to be honest, I don't really expect it, unless someone really wants to ruin my day.
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I'm not against harmonizer pedals. If it works, it works. Some folks just want to get all uppity about modern technology, then tell me about their amazing effects-board that mangles their bass sound.
Even if your harmonizer-pedal wasn't working, as long as I heard some type of harmony, the song is still acceptable. Until I actually hear your band play with the harmonizer and I take a mental note of it actually working, I might think differently as in, "Oh, this would've been the time the harmonizer-pedal would've sounded like this."
When I hear other bands, especially when I have no idea how they rehearse nor really care, I'm not going to take notes on every critique per song. They ask, "We sound good?" My response would usually be, "Yeah." I'm not going to get into the detailed explanations of things I probably already forgot. It'll usually just be general things like, "Singer/guitarist/drummer is too loud." Just fix the major problems to keep the audience around.
When I play, I usually get from audience members, "I can't hear your harmonies." They're not going to go into vocal lessons on my vibrato, using my diaphragm, or suggesting a different microphone at a specific EQ-settings. And to be honest, I don't really expect it, unless someone really wants to ruin my day.
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I'm not against harmonizer pedals. If it works, it works. Some folks just want to get all uppity about modern technology, then tell me about their amazing effects-board that mangles their bass sound.
s0c9
Supporting Member
Nothing personal, but from one old hand to another, generalizing from a set of personal experiences to make a claim about every audience member "in the history of electrically supported live music" is kind of a textbook problem with anecdotal experience. In this case, your almost 30 years of gigging is a *lot* of anecdotes. (Especially in those upstate clubs. I played a lot of that North Country and upstate circuit when I started in the late 70s and early 80s. That'll give you some stories in a hurry, and just when you think you've seen everything, there's something new.)
Now, here you are getting personal, but since you don't know me from Adam, it can't be about me so much as about where your head was at when you wrote this, so I'm not going to take it personally.
Yep. I remember it distinctly. I also checked out some of your clips. They're good, and coming from a roots rock background I could see why harmony-from-a-box definitely wouldn't pass muster on your gigs. But different rigs for different gigs.
Fair enough; I was supplying evidence that someone somewhere (me) has seen lots of bands that would have been better that night with harmonies that for whatever reasons they couldn't supply that night by putting a mic in front of one of the players onstage. Charge me guilty of reading too quickly on an online forum (nolo contendere). As you point out, that's not the same thing you were arguing.
Well, I'm not old enough to have been playing when multi-tracking or the electric bass were technologies only recently available. But even so, I've heard all those arguments (you probably have too) about technology serving as a crutch, many of them when the tech in question was new, and often presented in what seems the same spirit you're taking here. Classical players looking down at undisciplined jazzers. Jazzers looking down on high-gain rock guitarists and electric bass guitar players as uncommitted hacks. The panic over drum machines, MIDI, synths, and sampling being the death of music. Rock guys shaking their heads at disco, then hip hop. Tape studios decrying digital. If we were older, we'd have heard big band guys lamenting that era giving way to smaller less elegant combos, and 50s jazz, pop, and country swing bands lamenting the rise of completely unsophisticated and barbaric rock. In my view, the comparison between these issues and harmonizing tech isn't a slippery slope; they're very similar facets of the same belief that the present moment is always one of alarming decline in whatever we value. Goes back at least as far as classical antiquity, and it's probably not going away any time soon.
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“The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.”- Socrates, 5th century B.C.
In my old band we found the vocal harmonizer very useful for octave effects and one song -- Reelin' in the years. Our guitarist and drummer sang harmonies on many songs very well, but we couldn't quite nail that one. We reduced it to our lead singer, plus me and my virtual choir.
Steely Dan tours with three backup vocalists, too bad they couldn't find guitar players, a bassist, or a drummer who could sing. What a crutch!
The harmonizer we had sounded great if the keyboard was plugged into it so it could 'listen' and pick the notes. If you set it to guess the harmonies based on the ambient sound of the room or set it to a particular key, it sounded bad.
