You Don't Know What 4 is?????

[Gravedigger Dav]

- if they are talented players (e.g., savants) = roll with it: you're lucky to be there! --- get off your high-horse!
- if their talents are little-to-none = avoid it: why are you there? --- no high-horse needed!
- if they're somewhere in between, but 'salvageable = teach them how to communicate with you! --- no high-horse needed!

IME: it was always easy to figure out any "new language" that the 'uneducated' might have brought to the game. but "uneducated" never meant "talentless" in those bands in which i was lucky enough to be a part!

good luck with your project!

He is good and is good at working the crowd. It is just a problem knowing what key he is in. He can never tell me.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

If nothing else, this anecdote illustrates perfectly the value of music theory and a common musical lexicon for easily exchanging musical ideas.

I mean, I get what they're doing: 0 is standard, since they use a scordatura tuning, but it's limiting to determine everything based on where the capo happens to be. It's better than nothing, but not by much - how do they communicate mid-song modulations, relative keys, tonal centres, key changes, etc?

The keyboardist is probably the most screwed though, since he's playing everything in C major.

The keyboard guy is okay with it. He and the guitar are about on the same level theory wise.

You have to learn their language. It's the only way.

Sometimes it's painful. And I think it's only really possible if you have a good ear and you can identify notes you're hearing. If you have to ask for keys instead of just being able to fall in once they start playing, you might not be at that point.

That said, yeah - in these cases where you have to try to communicate a musical idea or a mistake they're making, it's doubly painful. You've got to speak in their language, even if it means stuff like "what you're playing now, but two frets up" and stuff like that. This is also much easier to do when you can hear what they're doing wrong. If the guitarist is playing with a capo and only using open chords, you can (generally) refer to the most common open chord shapes - usually E minor/major, G major, A minor/major, C major, and D major/minor.

There is a method to their madness. I get what they're doing with the -1 thing, even if it's weird. They're just marking half steps from standard EADGBE tuning. So you should be able to go from there.

I can understand the frustration, though. Guitar players are the WORST about this kind of poopie. I wouldn't blame you if you dropped the project because of it. But yeah, you just have to learn to translate to their language; I find that it's pretty common across the board for bassists to have to translate ideas between the rest of the band members. Good luck.

I'm an advanced player that started in music at age 6 on piano, played trombone in band, learned some guitar from my aunt, and started bass in 1963, so my ear is fine. I'm new to the group, so I'm trying to learn new material or relearn it because he seldom plays a song in the original key. I can pick it up, but this was not about starting a song, I was questioning the progression because it he was not doing the the same progression as either of the versions of the recording.

 

[DJ Bebop]

It's amazing to me people think they can play music without knowing anything about music. Which... is true for a lot of rock, I suppose. You can get by on guitar with a few barre chord shapes and pocketful of pentatonic minor licks.

I got to play with a Romanian guitarist, a gypsy guitarist if you will, who didn't read music or speak much English and I knew no Romanian but we knew Do Ri Me and the number system and He knew the Italian music terms. He taught me a lot about music

 

[Nev375]

Oy...that would make my head hurt.

If someone can't communicate in music terminology at the most basic level, it almost doesn't matter how well they play, their inability to communicate in musical terms to me would just make things to difficult for me.

I'm no theory hound, but if you are going to pickup an instrument you should also spend time learning to verbally communicate in musical terminology.

I've run into people that pride themselves on being strictly "ear" players, yet are simply incapable of communicating verbally what they are playing in even the simplest terms. One person, (a vocalist), once told me with a sense of pride that she "doesn't know whats meant by major or minor". Another person was talking about about a tune and a certain passage and was telling me "you can't count it, you just have to feel it", in referring to the placement of the beats on that passage. It wasn't anything too difficult and the beats in question were all on the upbeat of those two particular measures. When I mentioned this I got looked at like I had two heads.

I will never, ever understand why some people are resistant to knowledge.

For some people lessons aren't an option. The only resources they have are magazines with tablature, some recordings, their ears and time.

Not everyone grows up with supportive parents willing to shell out cash for lessons. Some of us take up the instrument in rural isolation despite threats and derision from our parents who'd rather us do something, ANYTHING other than play music.

I had my own way of writing things down using right triangles for major 3rd, obtuse triangles for minor and upside down or up acute triangles for 4ths and 5ths, etc... I didn't really know what major or minor meant until 5 years after I started and intervals another 5 years after that. another 5 years scales and modes started to click in.

By the time I had opportunities to learn music theory it was twice as complicated because I had to filter new concepts through a mental model that had no way of coping with them.

 

[DJ Bebop]

Maybe she was speaking Spanish.

If she was, it's news to me. It was my sister

 

[Bullitt5135]

I've been with this new group for a couple of months. I've been perplexed by they way they refer to the they are playing in. They down-tune to Eb - not uncommon, but not really my cup of tea. They refer to that as -1. The guitar player (acoustic and front man) uses a capo, so capo off is -1 capo on first fret is 0, second fret is +1, etc. The keyboard uses a feature that allows him to change pitch with an know, so he stays in tune with the guitar. They can never tell me what key they are in. When I ask, I get +1, -1, etc. I have to figure it out by ear. When I would say, "Okay, that can be several different keys. Which is it?", the guitar will show me what shape he is playing.

At our last rehearsal, it got really weird. We were starting to work on a new cover tune. On the turn around, he was going to 4, but both versions I had listened to go to 5. I mentioned it to him and asked if that was a mistake or he preferred doing that way. He gave me a blank stare and asked what I meant by 4.

The guy plays acoustic pretty well and is a good singer and front man, but obviously has no concept of basic theory. I'm not sure I can handle this lack of basic skill for long. How do I communicate with someone who doesn't speak the language.

There's the Nashville numbering system, where A would be the 4 of E. But it sounds like your band is counting ±1 in half-steps, so in their case, the 4 of E would be Ab, 5 is A, 7 is B, and so on. (I'm not even factoring in the 1/2 step shift to Eb). That would make the octave of E a 12? Yeah, kill me now.

 

[glocke1]

For some people lessons aren't an option. The only resources they have are magazines with tablature, some recordings, their ears and time.

Not everyone grows up with supportive parents willing to shell out cash for lessons. Some of us take up the instrument in rural isolation despite threats and derision from our parents who'd rather us do something, ANYTHING other than play music.

I had my own way of writing things down using right triangles for major 3rd, obtuse triangles for minor and upside down or up acute triangles for 4ths and 5ths, etc... I didn't really know what major or minor meant until 5 years after I started and intervals another 5 years after that. another 5 years scales and modes started to click in.

By the time I had opportunities to learn music theory it was twice as complicated because I had to filter new concepts through a mental model that had no way of coping with them.

Well...that was me. I will not go into the details of my experiences as a youth wanting to learn how to play bass in a highly dysfunctional household, all I will say is that it was not pleasant, and the parental units engaged in what I now realize was mental abuse towards me about it not only to discourage me from doing anything at all with it but to set me up for mental failure with regards to it.

In addition, the crew I hung out with back than, even though some of those people played instruments were "anti-intellectual", meaning that they derided those who sought to engage in formal learning. Those who took lessons were looked down upon by those kids, the teachers that taught those lessons were derided, etc..etc...

In retrospect I probably should have spent time in therapy given my upbringing.

I had every card you could think of stacked against me and I persevered despite this and sought out textbooks on music (Harmony, by Piston was the first music book I remember buying), and over a longer stretch of time than I care to think about eventually become fairly competent on bass.

So, if I can understand some of whats discussed here, anyone can.

Also, as an adult these days there is no reason to not put some effort into understanding how to communicate in the most basic with with regards to music. It stretches your brain, and allows you to communicate better with other musicians.

I look back over the years at the people I have played with who jammed out/wrote original music and recall some pretty frustrating moments when all they could tell me was " it goes like this" and they rapidly played some passage with no clue what notes or chords they were playing. Things would eventually work out but only after some trial and error...These days, with a busy career, house, being older and more tired, I'd never be able to engage in that kind of playing.

There are a lot of great things about being able to play by ear, but the folks who rely ONLY on being ear players are missing out by not being able to communicate effectively.

 

[Bob_Ross]

But it sounds like your band is counting ±1 in half-steps, so in their case, the 4 of E would be Ab, 5 is A, 7 is B, and so on. (I'm not even factoring in the 1/2 step shift to Eb). That would make the octave of E a 12? Yeah, kill me now.

Maybe they're actually academic music savants, and they've embraced The Integer Model Of Pitch-Class Set Theory as codified by George Perle and used by many of the more adventurous composers and theoriticians of the 20th Century?

 

[PaulCISSA]

I spent 3 years in a good group of talented musicians which included a producer and a couple of industry guys. Once I brought a Spector Coda DLX 5 string to rehearsal and was asked why it said “Coda” on the headstock when it was clearly a “jazz” bass.

My response was that was what Stuart chose to call it since it was a new model for them. “You know, like the beginning of the song - Coda”. They all looked at me like I had a third eye. When I asked what Coda meant to them, there was silence.

Very frustrating.

 

[Bob_Ross]

“You know, like the beginning of the song - Coda”.

 

[S-Bigbottom]

I spent 3 years in a good group of talented musicians which included a producer and a couple of industry guys. Once I brought a Spector Coda DLX 5 string to rehearsal and was asked why it said “Coda” on the headstock when it was clearly a “jazz” bass.

My response was that was what Stuart chose to call it since it was a new model for them. “You know, like the beginning of the song - Coda”. They all looked at me like I had a third eye. When I asked what Coda meant to them, there was silence.

Very frustrating.

Ummm...

coda
noun
co·da | \ ˈkō-də \
Definition of coda
1a: a concluding musical section that is formally distinct from the main structure
b: a concluding part of a literary or dramatic work
2: something that serves to round out, conclude, or summarize and usually has its own interest

History and Etymology for coda
Italian, literally, tail, from Latin cauda

cauda
/ˈkôdə/
noun
ANATOMY•ZOOLOGY

1. a structure resembling a tail.

 

[DJ Bebop]

I spent 3 years in a good group of talented musicians which included a producer and a couple of industry guys. Once I brought a Spector Coda DLX 5 string to rehearsal and was asked why it said “Coda” on the headstock when it was a “jazz” bass.

My response was that was what Stuart chose to call it since it was a new model for them. “You know, like the beginning of the song - Coda”. They all looked at me like I had a third eye. When I asked what Coda meant to them, there was silence.

Very frustrating.

Maybe they were silent because of your answer.
You're on the wrong end of the song

Coda (music) - Wikipedia.
In music, a coda ([ˈkoːda]) (Italian for "tail", plural code) is a passage that brings a piece (or a movement) to an end. Technically, it is an expanded cadence. It may be as simple as a few measures, or as complex as an entire section.[1]

Many songs in rock and other genres of popular music have sections identifiable as codas. A coda in these genres is sometimes referred to as an "outro", while in jazz, modern church music and barbershop arranging it is commonly called a "tag". One of the most famous codas is found in the 1968 single "Hey Jude" by The Beatles. The coda lasted nearly four minutes, making the song's full length at just over the seven-minute mark.

 

[Gothic]

I wanna know what four is
I want you to show meee

 

[And I]

a gypsy guitarist if you will

i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't know this, but that word is a racial slur for Romani people.

 

[DJ Bebop]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't know this, but that word is a racial slur for Romani people.

I did know that, unfortunately, he would refer to himself as a gypsy guitarist with a hearty laugh. He enjoyed the comparison to Django and the "gypsy" jazz scene. That is why I used it, he did and would always remind us of it. I would never call anyone else that, only him. But again, thanks for the heads up

There are some examples of some youth taking back the slur and repurposing the name and its use.
We see this in other communities, I can call myself something but for you to call me that is wrong.

 

[bassliner50]

Gives me a headache - I had a horn band - I was writing the charts for 4 ( Bb, Bb, C and Eb) horns. The guitar player was great but played by ear. He knew the Nashville number system, and could find notes on the fretboard. He like to work little clips of the horn parts into his parts, so I would have to read off the Bb chart and tell it to him in concert. Then the horn players and piano guy would get upset because they couldn't keep up when I was switching between Bb and concert. Piano player could read verbatim and chord charts, but couldn't comprehend why horns played in different keys. Horn players weren't the best. So I was the translator. I could relate to the horn players in their keys and chords, but I had to tell the piano and guitar player to not listen to me, because they would get all confused when I was telling the bari player (even thought the chords were on his chart), what the chords were. I finally got the guitar player to talking with me via the number system, the horn players to understand that I talked to them in their keys, and the piano player ignore everything and just play what was on his chart. The singer, however, she knew music very well, and could rattle off the names of the notes she was singing, and help de- confuse the members when I was talking in horn keys, but they were in concert. Oh, yeah, since we were in flat keys a lot, the guitar player used a de- tuned guitar on some songs. Eventually, the band learned to not listen to me unless I was speaking to them. But the guitar player picked up all of this transposition stuff. Good on him..
The moral is, unless you have a band of well trained players, you will have to establish a common musical language. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes not so much and working n songs becomes a nightmare.

You've taken on a lot there. Good for you. I'm surprised the necessary horn key shifts are foreign to the pianist. Pianist usually have their sh-t together.

 

[JW56789]

I'm not in the OP's shoes, but I'd be outta there THAT fast . . . .

 

[Jhengsman]

i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't know this, but that word is a racial slur for Romani people.

It is one of those words in flux. And the Romani/Gypsy people have different interpretations The Romani pastor of the Gypsy Church who has a local radio show which shares space in mine would disagree as that is how his community self identifies.

It sort of reminds me of a Cambodian immigrant I worked with who described himself and community as Oriental and I immediately went into oriental refers to a thing while Asians are the people that I had learned 20 years before

 

[delta7fred]

I would have no problem with this whatsoever. I regularly get chord sheets with the capo position written on the top. I transpose up by that number of frets. (Most guitarists I know think in frets not intervals.)

The OP's band have just taken this a little further by adding the 0 and -1 which makes it easy for anyone in standard tuning. So -1 transpose down a fret, +2 transpose up by 2 frets.

I don't down tune so would use my 5 string to give me access to the low Eb for any songs marked -1.

 

[mongo2]

One thing I learned decades ago is: don't expect anything and go with the flow as long as I can stand it.

Sometimes it takes 10 minutes and once it took over 20 years.