"your" tone vs PA

[fokof]

Now, you run your sound through the DI box at speaker level. In other words, run your speaker cable to the DI box and the another speaker cable from the DI box to your speaker cab(s). Bingo. The sound guy THINKS he is getting the sound straight from your bass so he will get right to dialing you in. You THINK you are helping even though you are probably hurting your band's overall sound. But at least both of you feel better about it. To heck with the rest of the band, or the audience. You two are the only ones who matter.

Your bass cab or bass monitor isn't part of "Your tone" ?

If you use a speaker DI , you are completely bypassing the sound of the cabinet wich IS the biggest part of bass amplification.
Bass cab have no low end and no top end , that's why bassist use and like them.
Lots and lots and loads and loads of low mid.

That kind of defeat the "I want you to mike my bass monitor " argument......

It becomes a preamplified , post DI , pre speaker DI.
Very bad idea IMO (if you want YOUR MONITOR TONE)

A good idea for an alternate type of DI sound on the other hand

 

[two fingers]

Your bass cab or bass monitor isn't part of "Your tone" ?

If you use a speaker DI , you are completely bypassing the sound of the cabinet wich IS the biggest part of bass amplification.
Bass cab have no low end and no top end , that's why bassist use and like them.
Lots and lots and loads and loads of low mid.

That kind of defeat the "I want you to mike my bass monitor " argument......

It becomes a preamplified , post DI , pre speaker DI.
Very bad idea IMO (if you want YOUR MONITOR TONE)

A good idea for an alternate type of DI sound on the other hand

Sometimes, all that low mid, and nothing else, will translate into total garbage out front. In my experience, on BOTH sides of the sound board, it takes a brighter sound out front to translate into something that cuts through a mix without sledge hammering it with beefy mud.

Usually all you hear at a live show from bass is low end muddy poof. My point is, there is plenty of blame on both sides of the board to go around for that.

As I said, some of you seem hell bent on sending the sound guy "your sound" regardless of whether or not "your sound" is what the band needs out front. Do what you want, man. I was making a point and a joke at the same time.

 

[eigentone]

Your bass cab or bass monitor isn't part of "Your tone" ?

If you use a speaker DI , you are completely bypassing the sound of the cabinet wich IS the biggest part of bass amplification.
Bass cab have no low end and no top end , that's why bassist use and like them.
Lots and lots and loads and loads of low mid.

That kind of defeat the "I want you to mike my bass monitor " argument......

It becomes a preamplified , post DI , pre speaker DI.
Very bad idea IMO (if you want YOUR MONITOR TONE)

A good idea for an alternate type of DI sound on the other hand

It's a great point to get a direct signal, particularly for tube amps. Some guys like it mic'ed. Some prefer direct. There are several places in the signal path to get direct signals. Some like it sooner. Some like it later. Of course, a little equalization of the direct signal can help. It's going to sound better there than immediately after the bass in many cases. This often doesn't work well for driven tones. In a tube amp, that captures the PI, power section, and transformer. The important part is that you try and see what works best for your rig and the sound you seek.

 

[eigentone]

Back when I was doing sound on a regular basis, I used a pink noise generator and a real time audio analyzer thru the mixer to "set" the EQ on the FOH to a flat response taking readings at several points in the room. Basically tuning the PA to the room it was in first. I also used it to set the EQ on the floor wedges each and every time I set up my system.

He's asking how soundmen EQ direct bass signals. Not how they tune a room.

 

[craigie]

He's asking how soundmen EQ direct bass signals. Not how they tune a room.

Correct. The RFQ information is useful though. Our mixer has one but we don't use it.

My predicament is I have set the bass EQ for the FOH speakers which we own so never change. In theory (according to Dave rat) if you correct EQ for the room at the master EQ level not the channel level then it will be good if you have good channel EQ to begin with (let's see what comes out of that
comment

In other words get a good channel sound once and keep it if nothing changes in the signal path. Then correct for room EQ with Master EQ. So my question is two parts because you need both sides of the coin.

 

[s0c9]

In other words get a good channel sound once and keep it if nothing changes in the signal path. Then correct for room EQ with Master EQ. So my question is two parts because you need both sides of the coin.

In theory.. IF you RTA every room you play in.. that "should" work. Your channel EQ should not change much for any room.. just the channel mix levels. However, most club/bar/venue owners I know will NOT let you RTA a room once patrons are present. Let's face it, pink noise generators used for RTA purposes are very annoying at volume. Stick that RTA mic in the middle of the floor .. crank up the pink noise and let your DSP auto-EQ the room. Patrons do NOT like that ssssssssshhh going on.
Setting up at 3pm (for most) on a Friday, isn't usually workable.. which is why most bands don't do it.. nor have/need RTA capability

 

[jimfist]

Two quick solutions using DI only methods come to mind:

- shift gears now, and develop your bass tone using nothing but your bass run into a (high quality) DI that is ultimately amplified by a full range (PA) speaker system. (I can hear the bristling through the internet already...BUT...some bassists do it and are no worse for the wear. In fact, they generally don't have this dilemma to contend with anymore.)

- use a post-preamp DI that includes some form of cabinet simulation that closely resembles the tone of your bass cabinet of choice.

These come in basically 3 forms: 1) analog filters (such as SansAmp products among others), 2) speaker emulators (pedals, boxes, floor and rack units - some are multi-fx/modelers) that employ digital impulse response technology) with baked-in "preset" choices of bass cabinet, and 3) speaker cabinet emulators that allow the user to employ provided (stock) cabinet impulse responses, their own custom IRs, or those available from 3rd parties (pro or otherwise). The better, more costly items in #3 also may include tube power amp emulation (desirable IMHO), while some (2 Notes Torpedo) include reactive loading from an amp's actual speaker output to capture the (tube) power amp stage (even better).

Regardless, the whole dilemma of getting "your tone" from the stage to the PA system is an age-old question that has no one-size-fits-all solution that is fool-proof.

The tone of the bass matters in the PA more and more as the size of the venue/stage/FOH system increases. Another thing to keep in mind WRT PA systems has to do with the fact that larger component FOH systems have discrete subwoofers. When subs are on the floor and the mid/high packs are flown a number of feet above them, you have to realize that "your tone" is constantly changing depending on where you are in proximity to the flown speakers and subs. If a listener is too close to the subs, they get a gut-punch devoid of clarity "tone". It's not until you get further back in the room where (if you're lucky), all of the frequencies start to combine into a singular, coherent bass tone.

All JMO. Happy hunting! =)

 

[Downunderwonder]

He's asking how soundmen EQ direct bass signals. Not how they tune a room.

Sadly a lot of so called soundmen don't even know the difference. They EQ the bass to the room instead of getting the room right for a mix.

 

[eigentone]

Correct. The RFQ information is useful though. Our mixer has one but we don't use it.

My predicament is I have set the bass EQ for the FOH speakers which we own so never change. In theory (according to Dave rat) if you correct EQ for the room at the master EQ level not the channel level then it will be good if you have good channel EQ to begin with (let's see what comes out of that
comment

In other words get a good channel sound once and keep it if nothing changes in the signal path. Then correct for room EQ with Master EQ. So my question is two parts because you need both sides of the coin.

RTAs and graphic EQs are somewhat useful. They only have so much accuracy and they also introduce artifacts of their own. Higher end systems can use FIRs, which are quite good in comparison to analog Graphic Equalizers.

They can solve some big problems in rooms with poor acoustics. There was a club in my city which was basically a cube-shaped warehouse with high ceilings and hard, reflective walls. Not good

What I'm getting at is they're far from perfect. Also, the room and reflections are very different once it's filled. People absorb a lot of reflections and can modify some of the room's axial mode strengths. So room tuning in live contexts is not bad, but it is certainly no cure-all. And certainly, these analyses frequently involve no time or phase correction so you're typically only tuning one of many 'dimensions' of a room's sound.

As far as the desk's EQs, I've gotten some usable tones but I'm usually not happy with the results of a bass direct into the board with some EQ. They are naturally quite dark with low harmonics and pronounced fundamentals. That clean, boomy sound can be a cool effect, but I tend to like my bass run through a proper bass preamp. Emulating a preamp's tone stack with a simple analog EQ isn't very easy. Given a versatile digital EQ, I'll often push up the highs, remove some of the upper mids, and optionally LPF and HPF to taste. With a good preamp (or even model) in the signal path, I don't really have to work for a tone. But… I've clocked many more hours engineering in studios than live venues.

 

[plymptonite]

a friend of mine ..quite a few years ago put it this way....bring the rig that fits the room ,Hall ,or outdoors..sound like you want to...and if at all possible bring a bottom cab...and if the band gives you crap...tell em to step off...they ain't hauling it...and you'll thank yourself to get your tone.....

 

[Geri O]

Sometimes, all that low mid, and nothing else, will translate into total garbage out front. In my experience, on BOTH sides of the sound board, it takes a brighter sound out front to translate into something that cuts through a mix without sledge hammering it with beefy mud.

Usually all you hear at a live show from bass is low end muddy poof. My point is, there is plenty of blame on both sides of the board to go around for that.

As I said, some of you seem hell bent on sending the sound guy "your sound" regardless of whether or not "your sound" is what the band needs out front. Do what you want, man. I was making a point and a joke at the same time.

Two Fingers, bless you for carrying on the good fight. I stopped seeing the point and caring many months ago. These discussions are like reading from a book.

 

[jimfist]

The Grateful Dead's short-lived "wall" of sound is probably history's best example of maintaining the integrity of the source tone to both the band on stage and the audience. (I'm not a Dead fan, but the sound reinforcement concepts are a trip, and were years ahead of their time).

Link Removed

For the rest of us, the struggle is real and never-ending...

 

[tshapiro]

Note: wireless actually starts the chain. But, having the compressor on the side allows me to swap in a cord for practice and studio.

I think there are several eye-opening experiences we have along the way and they are 1) recording and 2) using in ear monitors. What you 'think' you sound like and what you really sound like are not the same. I used to be emotionally attached to my tube amps and high-end microphones. But at the end of the day, being faced with the endless variables of playing live and quest to maintain 'my' sound - now it all happens on my Pedalboard. Here are some of the things I feel I'm able to do with this method:
- avoid cross talk from the drummer and guitar amps
- have the ability to eq the final sound from a DI/amp-sim.
- have the absolute consistency of my 'growl' by using my chosen overdrive pedal and amp-sim vs whatever back-line amp and mic I'm given
- control the ambience of the bass (a touch of reverb with short decay)
- remove buzzing and hum from dirty power sources.
- setup in 5 minutes if needed or jump from gig to gig when the opportunity arises.
- have multiple setups that can be at more than one location at a time

For me, an amp has become just a source of on-stage rumble. My 'sound' has become what I can do with my Pedalboard and the given PA for the show. When I can send a punchy growly strong signal to the board there's not too many sound guys that aren't happy with that because I make their job very easy. And I'm happy bc I know my sound is what I want it to be regardless of the situation.

 

[jimfist]

@tshapiro

are you going IEM? How do you deal with the variables of provided stage monitoring? Do you bring your own full range cabinet(s) for the stage?

 

[taylor16]

I started playing my OD pedals >> Noble preamp/DI with a high/low pass filter attenuating the high frequencies into our practice PA and adjusting my tone accordingly in a band setting.

I go "backwards" from there to mimics that with my amp/cab setup but ultimately care more about the PA tone than the tone coming from my cabs.

 

[bucephylus]

Here are some further $0.019, as I continue to try to absorb where this is going as the performance situations continue to evolve.

I largely am coming to appreciate a lot of the perspectives that @tshapiro voiced above. I also agree with @jimfist that one can choose to either be minimalist or take a deep breath and charge into the pedal route.

Backing up a bit, my heart kind of hurts for those players who are clinging to the mic'd amp setup. That approach is certainly righteous; but, I also think it is shoveling sand against a rising tide. There are just going to be an increasing number of gigs requiring no backline.

One can use a strategy for the different gig situations where you use completely different setups; for example, a mic'd cab for backlines or just a quality DI for no backline gigs. That has merits. But, then you are stuck with essentially two different voices to serve. Not impossible, just a lot going on.

Setting up some kind of pedal board that addresses the various issues does offer a unified approach, whereby you send the same thing either to a power amp/cab and/or to an FOH board. In theory, that makes a lot of sense. Preamp/DI's to go on pedal boards are proliferating and are one part of the puzzle. I've personally never been an effects kind of player; but, now am starting to look at the pedals that might be used not to generate crazy sounds, but to create legit toneful bass signals.

Still, even if you can put together the perfect bass signal to the board, whatever that is; you will still run into those sound folks who take that signal and put it solely in the subs, because bass belongs there, right? So, collaboratively shaking down the final bass tone in the FOH will forever remain a thing.

 

[nutdog]

there is no need for it, but my next buy will be a GK NE) 412 and either a 700rbII or 1001rbII. luckily, i live where i can play loudly for no reason.

Nothing to offer on the tone issue but thought you might be interested in this: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] (I'm not affiliated in any way)

 

[jimfist]

pretty much this ^^^ @bucephylus

The "all DI" route for tone - especially amp/cab simulated tone - was historically either limited, convoluted, expensive, or a combination of all of those. Over the last 10 years, the options and quality of emulations has taken a huge step forward on all of those fronts. If I couldn't get a quality tone using an all-direct method going into full-range cabinets, I wouldn't bother with it. But for me, it works, and it's made my life so much easier, without sacrificing anything really. What I HAVE been able to do is ditch a bunch of pedals, rack units, interconnect cables, bulky pedal boards and racks, amp heads and bass speaker cabinets. For me, life is good. YMMV.

 

[Bass Sludger]

The DI route just has too many advantages vs. the big rigs/refrigerator-setups that won't do subtle volumes. The less bleed from the stage, the better the FOH mix is going to be... usually. Even guitarists are following us bass players these days!

As a production manager at a local venue (2 rooms, 3000 & 700cap) almost 75% of all tech. riders coming through my desk are DI-only bass setups. There might be a cab on stage as filler on stage or just a dummy for the look. The bigger bands that do use both favor isolation cabs to get stage volumes under control. Especially with IEM-setups, there's really no need for amps/cabs on stage.

When I'm mixing a band I usually use both DI and mic, with the mic as backup for the DI. In that case I would use any mic, 57, 421 etc. If going mic-only my preferred mic is a M88.

 

[tshapiro]

@tshapiro

are you going IEM? How do you deal with the variables of provided stage monitoring? Do you bring your own full range cabinet(s) for the stage?

Great question... I do go with IEM and I have a variety of amps that I bring. I really just use the stage amps for rumble. I bring my own digital mixer and xlr splitters so that I can deal with whatever I run into with my in ears. If I can't get a monitor signal from the FOH mixer than I run into my own mixer and than Aux out to the FOH board. Then, I Setup my own room mic. But, most of the time I can get a digital mix from the FOH board for my IEM's. If I can, I still split my signal and mix my direct signal with the monitor mix I get from the FOH mixer so I can tweak my bass mix throughout the night