"your" tone vs PA

[fokof]

I wasn't suggesting asking the venue for a RE20. I was recommending bringing your own mic so your rig's tone would not be at the mercy of whatever remains in the venue's mic stash (typically SM57s). I then recommended an RE20 for bass cabs. This recommendation comes in the context of somebody who is picky about tone. Mic choice and placement was brought up (deservedly) as variables which shape that tone.

If a guy uses the "whatever remains in the mike stash" to mike your bass monitor , he probably has a "whatever remains in the shop" of a PA.
In these context , put a 57 a 414 or a RadioShack , you won't never be able to have "Your tone" anyways.
( reply #55)

 

[BooDoggie]

Mic'ing your cab does give them your whole sound. They will of course adjust it as needed but at least this way they have a desired basis from which to work. Saying it doesn't mean a thing just isn't true.

Exactly this.

^ Exactly NOT this. ^
Before you can really understand what your "sound" is, you first have to understand that "sound" is a perception of the human mind and not an absolute. No two people in the room hear exactly the same thing in the same way. Sound is made up of a combination of things that you cannot control nor perceive. The variables are so vast it would take a mathematics genius to totally sort it out. I was going to add more, but I must take my puppy out before she destroys my room.

 

[eigentone]

This is wishful thinking. Even if you had the flattest mic in the world, what you hear on the stage will not be what the mic picks up. There are several factors here: the distance from the signal source, the local acoustics on the stage versus the room, the other sounds on the stage, and your ears.

Edit: forgot to mention one of the biggest factors: bleed from other mics.

That's nitpicking. A good mic will represent the sound out of the bass cab well and that sound is able to be consistent night after night. Will it be identical night after night? No. Neither will the best processor you can find and hey, even your strings won't be identical. Why? Even the DJ won't get perfectly reproducible sound night after night because of temperature and humidity differences, not to mention the acoustic influence a crowd has on a typical Saturday night vs Sunday night.

We can pick nits and we can be practical. Through a mic, can differences be heard when comparing Pick vs Fingers? Bridge vs Neck pickup? When the OD or phaser/whatever is on vs off? How about when the tube power section hits its ceiling? And the amplitude and frequency response differences of the speakers? Ok. Great. Now mics suddenly appear obviously practical when variables such as the cab, speakers, and amp's power section are important parts of that sound.

Sure, mics and the PA aren't perfectly realistic representations of the sources, but we can either call that wishful thinking or learn how to use these tools to our advantage.

 

[mellowinman]

Does the tone you love work well in a band mix? I'd say being a "tone snob" isn't going to work well for live performance. I'd say you get the tone your bass offers, and if you love the tone profile of an amp, you can only get so much of that. But I'd say in most gigs, you're lucky if you don't just flat out sound terrible.

 

[eigentone]

And how do you validate that "he's" doing that? Run up to the booth during the gig?
There's a trust / symbiotic relationship that HAS to exist there..
I don't recall the "He doesn't have to like it but he damn well better use what I want to give him" approach being in the "how to win friends and influence people" manual.
Try that approach with the pro level sound guys I know.. and you can guess the reaction it will solicit.

A simple explanation that the amp and cab are important components of your sound during setup will do in most cases. If you have your mic and there is reasonable room onstage, he won't have much to press back with.

 

[monkeyfinger]

I can get a wide variety of sounds from a cab just by changing mic placement. I am sure you may be able to get closer to a live sound you like if you carefully choose the mic and work on placing it just right. But that will only get you so far. Live is not the same as recording. You have to deal with a lot more compromises. That is where your conversation with the sound person should lie, finding a mutually acceptable set of compromises.

 

[eigentone]

I can get a wide variety of sounds from a cab just by changing mic placement. I am sure you may be able to get closer to a live sound you like if you carefully choose the mic and work on placing it just right. But that will only get you so far. Live is not the same as recording. You have to deal with a lot more compromises. That is where your conversation with the sound person should lie, finding a mutually acceptable set of compromises.

The primary for people playing with amps is going to be stage volume.

 

[David Jayne]

^ Exactly NOT this. ^
Before you can really understand what your "sound" is, you first have to understand that "sound" is a perception of the human mind and not an absolute. No two people in the room hear exactly the same thing in the same way. Sound is made up of a combination of things that you cannot control nor perceive. The variables are so vast it would take a mathematics genius to totally sort it out. I was going to add more, but I must take my puppy out before she destroys my room.

I don't need the math, thanks. And I certainly don't know everything. But I do know that if they mic my cab it usually sounds better.

 

[David Jayne]

And how do you validate that "he's" doing that? Run up to the booth during the gig?
There's a trust / symbiotic relationship that HAS to exist there..
I don't recall the "He doesn't have to like it but he damn well better use what I want to give him" approach being in the "how to win friends and influence people" manual.
Try that approach with the pro level sound guys I know.. and you can guess the reaction it will solicit.

I work exclusively with pro level folks these days. So I never have to put my foot down. They know their job and they do it. And I do mine.

 

[s0c9]

A simple explanation that the amp and cab are important components of your sound during setup will do in most cases. If you have your mic and there is reasonable room onstage, he won't have much to press back with.

No arguments with that..
I was making the point that anyone who uses the "He doesn't have to like it but he damn well better use what I want to give him" approach with the pro level sound guys I know..ISN'T going to make an progress in the "how to win friends and influence people" stakes. Just the opposite.

 

[s0c9]

I work exclusively with pro level folks these days. So I never have to put my foot down. They know their job and they do it. And I do mine.

That's great.. but it's not clear why would you then bring up the "He doesn't have to like it but he damn well better use what I want to give him" ?? Because that isn't a problem for you.

 

[eigentone]

No arguments with that..
I was making the point that anyone who uses the "He doesn't have to like it but he damn well better use what I want to give him" approach with the pro level sound guys I know..ISN'T going to make an progress in the "how to win friends and influence people" stakes. Just the opposite.

I don't believe @David Jayne takes a hard stance from the first word exchanged with the soundman. I assume he is respected by and respectful of the soundman. A respectful soundman will try to use the client's mic, if it's the client's wish. And that's usually all there is to it.

That assumption could be wrong.

 

[craigie]

I played bass and ran sound in several bands over the years. When wireless instrument receivers first became available I started using one. I would do a sound check with the band on stage with my 4x10 cab on top of a rack case mainly pointed at the drummer and myself until we were happy with our stage sound. I always used a 100 foot snake to put the mixer in the optimal position for setting the room sound. (No longer needed with wireless mixers) You guys have it so easy now compared to what we used to have to haul around. I could stand at the mixer and make adjustments until I was happy with the overall sound. Then all I needed was a trained monkey (usually mine or one of the other band members girlfriends or wives) to babysit the mixer to prevent unwanted adjustments from members of the crowd.

Lol on the trained monkey. No monkeys available and my buddy owns the mixer and would kill anyone who touches it. I also don’t trust him to EQ bass because although he has a good ear he thinks bass means bass and would boost that until my G and D string dissappear. I'll get there.

I know it varies room to room andbut to the sound guys, what do you generally do to the EQ? I find the board sound has too much highs with too much finger noise and so the bass sounds too "there". By cutting that out I find I blend better. I guess my DI on the RH450 is uncolored.

 

[eigentone]

Lol on the trained monkey. No monkeys available and my buddy owns the mixer and would kill anyone who touches it. I also don’t trust him to EQ bass because although he has a good ear he thinks bass means bass and would boost that until my G and D string dissappear. I'll get there.

I know it varies room to room andbut to the sound guys, what do you generally do to the EQ? I find the board sound has too much highs with too much finger noise and so the bass sounds too "there". By cutting that out I find I blend better. I guess my DI on the RH450 is uncolored.

Direct bass guitars (and electric guitars) sound very dark by themselves. I don't do live sound these days, but I preferred mic'ed cabs and preamp outs. Since I was always more of a studio guy than a live guy, I had some good mics at my disposal. I don't know… that dark direct bass sound is cool in some places but it really doesn't sound like a familiar amplified bass. Using a desk's EQ to emulate a preamp only goes so far. In fact, it can be kind of a wreck of the bassist plays with dirt. Therefore, I preferred a signal after the bassist's preamp in most cases. That's voiced more similar to my idea of electric bass. Processor outs can also be great. Classic tone stacks look like the trebles are up and there is a small valley in the mids. Engaging the HPF can also help keep the dangerous lows out. In short, use the preamp out or a mic when the rig is good. In studios, a lot of guys blend direct signal in with amped or amp-sim'ed tracks. Obviously, I consider a good bass preamp part of a good system. If the DI supports speaker levels, you can also connect it to the cable running from the cab to the amp.

Regarding finger noise, just dial the tone knob back a bit. If it's still there, the treble may be boosted too much -- assuming passive bass controls.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Rooms big enough to need PA support for bass generally don't have a booming stage. Not in my world anyway, never had to deal with that. Churches would be a notable exception which may be one reason DI everything is commonplace for churches.

Outdoors is there is no good reason for pushback before listening to the mic.

 

[tfer]

I don't need the math, thanks. And I certainly don't know everything. But I do know that if they mic my cab it usually sounds better.

The problem with DIs is that they've become the norm, because they're idiot-proof.

That's exactly why I carry my own mic (and cables, stand, etc).

I've played live enough to know what I want to achieve. It rarely takes more than 5 minutes to sit with the soundman and explain my goals.

It usually consists of "I'm not interested in cutting through the mix. I much prefer to be inside of it, supporting the drums and vocalist. On these songs however (I may hand him a list), I have solos. My board has presets that I use. They are boosted by 3db, so if you could leave enough headroom to avoid clipping, I'd appreciate it."

I've never had a single problem with a soundguy.

I then set up my mic, do a quick check so that he can get a board level, and he moves onto the guitars.

I work exclusively with pro level folks these days. So I never have to put my foot down. They know their job and they do it. And I do mine.

Exactly. Be polite and professional, and most problems disappear before they even start out as questions.

 

[David Jayne]

I don't believe @David Jayne takes a hard stance from the first word exchanged with the soundman. I assume he is respected by and respectful of the soundman. A respectful soundman will try to use the client's mic, if it's the client's wish. And that's usually all there is to it.

That assumption could be wrong.

I came off a bit strident. Point is I've been dicked around for years by idiots, as we all have. I just won't take it anymore, and don't have time to argue with incompetents. Fortunately this hardly ever happens anymore. I'm generally a very reasonable guy.

 

[ad9000]

Another justification for the "don't piss off the sound man" maxim is: he is the guy who has control of the fader on the bass channel, and the power to use it. Case in point, at an Elvis Costello & the Attractions show that I attended in the early '80's, the bass was completely inaudible through the entire set. I could only guess, knowing a bit about Bruce Thomas' temperament, that he did something to alienate the FOH engineer which caused him to retaliate by taking Bruce completely out of the mix. I could be wrong, but if it was a technical problem they would have attempted to fix it while the show was going on.

Anyway, the lesson for me was, no matter how much of an idiot your FOH mixer is, being antagonistic towards them won't help. I've been in situations on tours where the band is unhappy with FOH or monitor engineers, and if the complaints are legitimate they will eventually be addressed one way or another. I was on a tour where we went through three monitor mixers in 7 weeks, and that wasn't because of any diva behavior on the part of the band - the mixers were actually incompetent or psycho (both in one case) except for the guy who finished out the run. Because the production manager cared enough about making the band happy, he was willing to make changes until they got it right. Even in a club situation, where the pay scale may be less, the sound man could be the owner's brother or the owner couldn't give two ***** about the sound, enough squawking will get results eventually.

 

[BooDoggie]

I know it varies room to room andbut to the sound guys, what do you generally do to the EQ?

Back when I was doing sound on a regular basis, I used a pink noise generator and a real time audio analyzer thru the mixer to "set" the EQ on the FOH to a flat response taking readings at several points in the room. Basically tuning the PA to the room it was in first. I also used it to set the EQ on the floor wedges each and every time I set up my system.

 

[two fingers]

By the way, as a sound guy I can teach you a trick that you can use to get "your tone" out front.

WARNING! Your tone might suck out front and you might have absolutely no idea what you're talking about when it comes to house sound! So this trick might harm your band more than it helps! But if it helps your ego and helps you sleep at night, go for it!

Get yourself a Countryman Type 85 DI box. It is pretty much the industry standard (unfortunately) in the mid level regional sound company world. (Many will recognize a Radial as well....but not all) Set it right on top of your amp when you set up. When they hand you a DI, point to yours and say "I brought my own. Thanks." They will see a generic DI box and think "Sweet". And they will plug right in. (Dance monkey dance. Bwahahahaha!) Now, you run your sound through the DI box at speaker level. In other words, run your speaker cable to the DI box and the another speaker cable from the DI box to your speaker cab(s). Bingo. The sound guy THINKS he is getting the sound straight from your bass so he will get right to dialing you in. You THINK you are helping even though you are probably hurting your band's overall sound. But at least both of you feel better about it. To heck with the rest of the band, or the audience. You two are the only ones who matter.