"your" tone vs PA

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In all honesty and candor, I don't hear anybody's "tone" at most gigs, whether local or world famous players. No matter if a player plugs into just a tuner, or a miked rig with enough effects to make Wimbish feel intimidated, it almost always sounds the same. Boom, with almost no note definition. In the rare cases where there is a disernable tone thing happening, it's a player that uses minimal effects and has a musical touch and/or a command of the instrument that allows audibility through a mix. They let the PA do a lot of the work. That comes with practice, and can't really be bought.

I agree, and I think this is mostly due to the line array + sub configuration that you find in 98% of venues these days (vs. the larger Clair Bros. type enclosures of years past), as well as the tendency of a lot of FOH engineers to crank the subs just because they can, obliterating all of the midrange information where bass tone lives. It is possible to get a good bass sound that has attack, tone and definition through line arrays with subs (+ or - room acoustics), but FOH engineers have to work harder to get it and actually have to have a sense of what good bass tone is. Another problem is the horrible practice of making the kick drum the loudest thing in the mix, immediately wiping out any possibility of hearing actual bass tone.

I've been to the Coachella festival a couple of times, and it was a good study in hearing how different FOH engineers treated bass through the same system(s). Some automatically made it sound like that car that pulls up next to you at a stoplight blasting hip hop with a huge subwoofer in the trunk, even when that was totally inappropriate for the music (i.e. Jake Bugg). Most at least got the bass present and properly balanced in the mix but without much actual tone, and a couple actually got perfectly balanced, beautiful bass tone (the guy with Polica comes to mind).

The main thing, which inanimate_carb touches on, is that good tone has to be coming from the player's fingers (and instrument) first and foremost. If that's happening, the rest can be a lot easier. My mentor as far as how to play in large venues was Carmine Rojas, who exclusively played with a pick for a while because that guaranteed the bass would cut through better - not that I exclusively adopted that practice, but it was a good starting point.

 

[inanimate_carb]

[QUOTE="ad9000, post: 20114136, member: 40636"The main thing, which intimate_carb touches on, is that good tone has to be coming from the player's fingers (and instrument) first and foremost. If that's happening, the rest can be a lot easier. My mentor as far as how to play in large venues was Carmine Rojas, who exclusively played with a pick for a while because that guaranteed the bass would cut through better - not that I adopted that practice, but it was a good starting point.[/QUOTE]

I remember from years past that you could actually hear Carmine in arenas when he played with both Bowie and Michael Bolton. Rojas worked with guys in circles I ran in, but I never met him. He did say that higher action and a pick were the way to get heard in the big halls. T-Bone Wolk said the same thing, and it only took me decades to figure out they were right all along!

 

[Reverend179]

I played a gig last night where I very carefully explained to the soundguy (who was presently using some of MY gaff tape to reattach the upper of his shoe to the sole, after making fun of my rig for being too big) that I use my sansamp rackmounts as a primary toneshaper, I run my bass rig pretty dirty, and I would greatly appreciate it if he used the XLR cable hanging out of the back of my rig with the green glow tape on it and the tag that says 'PLEASE USE THIS ONE' that's coming out of the Sansamp effected out. He promptly plugged in to the unaffected out, thereby bypassing my entire drive chain. After hearing the two bands before me, I knew he liked to push the kick super hard in the subs, and the bass almost none at all, so I'm pretty sure my bass came out of the PA lifeless if at all. Now, normally, I'm one to heed the soundguy, it's his room, he knows best. I wasn't asking for him to push me loud, I can do that with my rig if needs be. I just wanted my tone to be preserved- it's something I've crafted specifically to cut through two super loud guitarists who use a lot of frequency-soaking effects (big reverbs stacked on delays with fuzz).

Now, like I said, I'm not one to normally argue with the sound guys. It's a great way to end up with a poopie mix out of spite, and he probably knows the room better than you. That being said, I've been on the other end of the room for years, and I've never immediately rejected a request from a band without even considering it.

 

[HolmeBass]

this may be a dumb question, but (assuming one has the means) it it at all common for (any musician, not just bassists) to show up to a larger gig, say smaller dive type venue 300 people? and say, screw the PA, i brought enough ass? i am only guessing, but i woud imagine that a 1000 wat class head and 2x full sized cabs (810/412) woud move enough air to not NEED PA support. i could be totally off, please educate me, but that seems to be the only real way to get "your" tone to the audience, i also imagine at that point, you would want a friend in the pit/audience area during sound check. again, sorry if i am totally being a noob to this stuff, i am just a lover of playing and listening!

You can totally do this. The issue then becomes dispersion.

For the "carry the room yourself" scenario it often goes like this: People standing inline in front of your cabs hear a good, clear representation of your tone. Up closer to the stage, though, it's too loud for comfort. People a bit further away and off-axis from your cabs will hear your low end, but be missing your mids and highs. Significantly off-axis it could be a muddy mess without much character at all.

I always feel in mid-sized indoor spaces, when working with a PA, that I can often cover the lows from onstage, and really need the PA for mids and highs to get good dispersion, note definition, and pitch definition.

But the sound engineer sometimes wants to just pump almost exclusively lows through his subs. Then in that case the lows from my rig, which is the only thing I can really project much of from stage, compete with his subs and wash out the low end, possibly even causing standing wave/node and anti-node issues in the low freqs.

So you end up with your rig turned way down trying to get enough volume from the foldbacks and sidefills to compete with the horrendous low end rumble coming off the back of the subs. I'll switch to a pre-send on the DI, roll the lows way down and push just mids and highs on stage. But the group delay still eats you alive and it's muddy as heck. Plus cutting out the lows on my rig kind of breaks my heart.

If the engineer is actually doing "sound reinforcement" and not playing at being some kind of record producer, these kinds of issues are reduced because the PA is providing the same kind of balanced bass output as your rig, which means the subs are somewhat under control, thus not as much low end mush on stage so you actually don't have to be as loud to hear if you're on pitch or in time. The SE is using the PA to reinforce your rigs sound in the room, rather than trying to replace it. Makes a big difference.

 

[ad9000]

[/QUOTE] I remember from years past that you could actually hear Carmine in arenas when he played with both Bowie and Michael Bolton. Rojas worked with guys in circles I ran in, but I never met him. He did say that higher action and a pick were the way to get heard in the big halls. T-Bone Wolk said the same thing, and it only took me decades to figure out they were right all along![/QUOTE]

My wife was one of the backup singers with Bolton when Carmine was on the gig, so I got to hear him and hang out quite a bit. I was already a big fan of his playing, so it was cool to be able to analyze what he was doing and pick his brain. He had another interesting gear philosophy - he used cabinets with 12's on the east coast and 15's on the west coast, his reasoning being that 12's moved air faster in humid east coast conditions (I didn't ask what he used in the midwest). It seemed kind of wack at the time, but I eventually decided it was a vaild concept.

T-Bone Wolk certainly had tone for days, and I got the feeling it was all coming from his hands.

 

[bucephylus]

After hearing the two bands before me, I knew he liked to push the kick super hard in the subs, and the bass almost none at all, so...

So...this is symptomatic of a sound person who simply doesn't understand the art form. The kick works on Beats 1 and 3. Those beats are emphasized in European march oriented music; and that feel does get used for a very few popular tunes; but, those are vastly the exception. Feel and swing in the vast majority of popular tunes work off of the 2 and 4 beats.

This isn't a slag on sound people. The same criticism, intended constructively, can equally be leveled at unaware musicians. In fact, I tend to evaluate the sound people just like fellow musicians, since their craft requires some similar awareness about the art form to be effective.

 

[craigie]

My tone comesfrom a Radial Tonebone Bassbone direct to PA....so, I never worry about it. BTW, I run the PA from stage.

I'm curious how you adjust for the room acoustics since you can't tweak knobs, play bass and go out front to hear all at the same time. I'm not being sarcastic; I run post EQ DI from my amp which I set up for the best out front sound in a fairly dead setting and we mix from stage. My band mate is out front for soundcheck and I push faders and twist knobs as per his direction. No direction on the bass sound though
and I just cut lows if it sounds boomy. I've thought about using a long speaker cable for my cab and bringing my head out front to soundcheck.

 

[peledog]

BTW - great thread. So much good info.

 

[lbbc]

I'm curious how you adjust for the room acoustics since you can't tweak knobs, play bass and go out front to hear all at the same time. I'm not being sarcastic; I run post EQ DI from my amp which I set up for the best out front sound in a fairly dead setting and we mix from stage. My band mate is out front for soundcheck and I push faders and twist knobs as per his direction. No direction on the bass sound though
and I just cut lows if it sounds boomy. I've thought about using a long speaker cable for my cab and bringing my head out front to soundcheck.

I am wireless and check during performance when my wife is singing. We have a basic setting where tweaking can be done on the fly and it's usually just vocals volume that needs adjusting. BTW, no drummer and the guitarist and I run direct into PA (no amps) him--pedalboard to Bragg to PA...me--Radial Tonebone Bassbone to PA

 

[BooDoggie]

I run post EQ DI from my amp which I set up for the best out front sound in a fairly dead setting and we mix from stage.

^ This is the worst thing you can do to the house sound mix. ^

I recently got a call to "fix" the sound at a local church. The guitar player was playing a $2500 Taylor guitar plugged into a Acoustic wedge amp. From where he was sitting there was so much bass he had to cut it almost completely out. He had a line plugged into the amp's direct out set to post EQ. At the mixer it sounded like he was using a $20 guitar he got at a pawn shop... All treble and high mids. It sounded terrible until I switched it to pre EQ.

 

[craigie]

^ This is the worst thing you can do to the house sound mix. ^

I recently got a call to "fix" the sound at a local church. The guitar player was playing a $2500 Taylor guitar plugged into a Acoustic wedge amp. From where he was sitting
there was so much bass he had to

cut it almost completely out. He had a line plugged into the amp's direct out set to post EQ. At the mixer it sounded like he was using a $20 guitar he got at a pawn shop... All
treble and high mids. It sounded
terrible until I switched it to pre EQ.

I see your point. I'm rethinking things....
The way I see the bass sound was the best sound I could get at the board pre. Then I switched to post with everything flat and made small adjustments but for the P.A not the cabinet. Since the PA is ours the room is what changes and that's the tricky part because it's not feasible to play and hear from out front and
adjust the bass sound at the mixer. Limitation of two man crew.
But a boomy stage without a boomy room could really throw things out of whack. I'll bring my head out front next time and flip the pre/post and try adjusting for the room there.

I also use my cab for side fill and keep it pretty low volume.

 

[craigie]

I am wireless and check during performance when my wife is singing. We have a basic setting where tweaking can be done on the fly and it's usually just vocals volume that needs adjusting. BTW, no drummer and the guitarist and I run direct into PA (no amps) him--pedalboard to Bragg to PA...me--Radial Tonebone Bassbone to PA

That makes sense and is similar to our setup except we have MIDI drums. I've heard that Radial Tonebone a lot on TB....

 

[eigentone]

Totally feeling you in theory here, but I don't think I've ever in my life seen an RE20 onstage. In my experience you'll either get an SM57 (or whatever more or less equivalent mic they have on hand) or very rarely one of the kick mics you mentioned. Probably the ~57, because any sound system will have tons of them around but may not have more than one kick mic and SADLY the drummer will probably bogart that.

And a 57 will be fine onstage. Enough low end for the PA to work with, enough highs and mids that all your distortion and effects will come across.

Just to be clear, I wrote that in the context of bringing your own mic:

Some musicians bring their own mics and set them up. This permits control of some of the potential variables you mentioned, such as position and mic.

For an onstage dynamic, I'd recommend the RE20 for bass cabs. A lot of venues will use 57s -- which is another good reason to bring a mic if you're picky about "tone".

I wasn't suggesting asking the venue for a RE20. I was recommending bringing your own mic so your rig's tone would not be at the mercy of whatever remains in the venue's mic stash (typically SM57s). I then recommended an RE20 for bass cabs. This recommendation comes in the context of somebody who is picky about tone. Mic choice and placement was brought up (deservedly) as variables which shape that tone.

I've done much recording and some live sound (pubs, halls, fests). I'll come right out and say I'm not a fan of the SM57. It's not a good mic for bass cabs IMO. SM57s have a pretty strong presence peak (+6 dB at 6 kHz) and a 6 dB/octave LF rolloff starting at 180 Hz (approximate). This means that the low E will be about 12 dB quieter than the E two octaves above. At extremes of humans' loudness perception, that low E will sound somewhere from half as loud to one quarter as loud. Many speakers used in bass cabs are already reducing those low frequencies - plus it takes more Watts to push out those lows (matters in some scenarios). This often means SM57s on basses will have poor lows and can often compete with the intelligibility of the singer. It's also not great that the bass has the same emphasis as other instruments. I've certainly encountered musicians who have brought their own live mics. I even brought a mic after I'd been playing out for a few years and became more serious.

The RE20 has excellent off axis rejection and proximity effect is hardly an issue. Its frequency response is quite flat in comparison to the SM57. Its natural LF rolloff begins around 70 Hz. That low E is only down 3 or 4 dB. The SM7B is also great for bass cabs IME.

For the musician who is picky about tone, choosing and supplying the right mic for shows is not a bad investment. In fact, it's often a better investment than that extra cab, fancy pedal, or rack unit.

 

[lbbc]

That makes sense and is similar to our setup except we have MIDI drums. I've heard that Radial Tonebone a lot on TB....

Radial has been great gear for me!

 

[BooDoggie]

I see your point. I'm rethinking things....
The way I see the bass sound was the best sound I could get at the board pre. Then I switched to post with everything flat and made small adjustments but for the P.A not the cabinet. Since the PA is ours the room is what changes and that's the tricky part because it's not feasible to play and hear from out front and adjust the bass sound at the mixer. Limitation of two man crew. But a boomy stage without a boomy room could really throw things out of whack. I'll bring my head out front next time and flip the pre/post and try adjusting for the room there.

I also use my cab for side fill and keep it pretty low volume.

I played bass and ran sound in several bands over the years. When wireless instrument receivers first became available I started using one. I would do a sound check with the band on stage with my 4x10 cab on top of a rack case mainly pointed at the drummer and myself until we were happy with our stage sound. I always used a 100 foot snake to put the mixer in the optimal position for setting the room sound. (No longer needed with wireless mixers) You guys have it so easy now compared to what we used to have to haul around. I could stand at the mixer and make adjustments until I was happy with the overall sound. Then all I needed was a trained monkey (usually mine or one of the other band members girlfriends or wives) to babysit the mixer to prevent unwanted adjustments from members of the crowd.

 

[tfer]

Mic'ing your cab does give them your whole sound. They will of course adjust it as needed but at least this way they have a desired basis from which to work. Saying it doesn't mean a thing just isn't true.

Exactly this.

 

[monkeyfinger]

This is wishful thinking. Even if you had the flattest mic in the world, what you hear on the stage will not be what the mic picks up. There are several factors here: the distance from the signal source, the local acoustics on the stage versus the room, the other sounds on the stage, and your ears.

Edit: forgot to mention one of the biggest factors: bleed from other mics.

Mic'ing your cab does give them your whole sound. They will of course adjust it as needed but at least this way they have a desired basis from which to work. Saying it doesn't mean a thing just isn't true.

 

[tfer]

Definitely a common question. Not much for me to say that hasn't been said before in other threads or here already.

I do find it interesting that there is an assumption that a mic will capture "your" sound. Each mic has a different profile, with various bumps and dips in EQ. Placement on the speaker (cap, crease, edge), has an effect on what the mic picks up. A mic isn't a sure-fire way to get the exact sound you hear standing next to your rig.

As a favour to whatever sound guy happens to be there, I have my own mic, and I mic my cab myself. I know what the placement should be after doing it literally hundreds of times.

The other overstated risk is bleed.

I use a directional mic, and my cabs are along the backline, behind everything.

Vocal mics, lined up along the front of the stage, are FAR more prone to bleeding, than anything I could ever use.

 

[David Jayne]

I played a gig last night where I very carefully explained to the soundguy (who was presently using some of MY gaff tape to reattach the upper of his shoe to the sole, after making fun of my rig for being too big) that I use my sansamp rackmounts as a primary toneshaper, I run my bass rig pretty dirty, and I would greatly appreciate it if he used the XLR cable hanging out of the back of my rig with the green glow tape on it and the tag that says 'PLEASE USE THIS ONE' that's coming out of the Sansamp effected out. He promptly plugged in to the unaffected out, thereby bypassing my entire drive chain. After hearing the two bands before me, I knew he liked to push the kick super hard in the subs, and the bass almost none at all, so I'm pretty sure my bass came out of the PA lifeless if at all. Now, normally, I'm one to heed the soundguy, it's his room, he knows best. I wasn't asking for him to push me loud, I can do that with my rig if needs be. I just wanted my tone to be preserved- it's something I've crafted specifically to cut through two super loud guitarists who use a lot of frequency-soaking effects (big reverbs stacked on delays with fuzz).

Now, like I said, I'm not one to normally argue with the sound guys. It's a great way to end up with a poopie mix out of spite, and he probably knows the room better than you. That being said, I've been on the other end of the room for years, and I've never immediately rejected a request from a band without even considering it.

Nope. You are providing the material. He's there to spread it around. He works for you. He doesn't have to like it but he damn well better use what I want to give him.

 

[s0c9]

Nope. You are providing the material. He's there to spread it around. He works for you. He doesn't have to like it but he damn well better use what I want to give him.

And how do you validate that "he's" doing that? Run up to the booth during the gig?
There's a trust / symbiotic relationship that HAS to exist there..
I don't recall the "He doesn't have to like it but he damn well better use what I want to give him" approach being in the "how to win friends and influence people" manual.
Try that approach with the pro level sound guys I know.. and you can guess the reaction it will solicit.