You're too loud!!!!!!!!!

[Dkerwood]

A soundman has been dicussed but it's not in the budget. We don't get alot to play in my parts as it is.

Even a trusted wife/girlfriend/friend is better than nothing. If that person is a musician, all the better. They can tell guitard/soundman what's too loud, and he needs to trust them.

I can't believe I didn't think to mention raising the amps. I bought a stand for my 2x12 Fender, and typically point it towards my head. It's still quieter than the monitor, but it does provide a slight volume boost when I'm between it and the monitor. The bass stack usually sits atop the bass drum case.

It's amazing what happens when your amps are aimed toward your EARS instead of your knees.

 

[DWBass]

+1 re: drummer dictating band volume! My old band had a drummer who 'beat the snot' outta his snare and both guitarists turned up to compensate. Guitar 1 kept asking me to turn up and I kept telling him no that they were too loud and the drummer too. This is all in addition to Guitar 1 bringing 2 dual 15" subs + 2 dual 15" w/horns mains, 1400w mains amp + 1400w monitor amp in a small club (seats less than 50)! I mean, ***? I just cannot stand a loud band! There is no reason to be loud espescially if you have PA support! You're defeating the whole purpose of having a PA! And you young drummers and guitards need a lesson on sound volume and nuances! Wailing away with your volume on 11 while the singer is singing does not make you a musician! TURN IT DOWN!!

 

[badstonebass]

I agree with the guy who says push the lows more. Strong subs make the PERCEPTION of loudness because the music is being "felt".

Guitars should be set just loud enough to hear yourself....no louder. I disagree with those that say you have to "push a stack". I played guitar for 30+ years and I never had to push my stack past 1 or 2 to get a good sound....even on outdoor gigs. Then they should need to just be barely bled into the PA mix. If the guitarist is having problems making his leads work at low volumes he needs a Tube Screamer.....or a Marshall Gov'ner pedal. In fact if you are mixing from stage he HAS to have something to boost leads.

 

[bassbully43]

+1 re: drummer dictating band volume! My old band had a drummer who 'beat the snot' outta his snare and both guitarists turned up to compensate. Guitar 1 kept asking me to turn up and I kept telling him no that they were too loud and the drummer too. This is all in addition to Guitar 1 bringing 2 dual 15" subs + 2 dual 15" w/horns mains, 1400w mains amp + 1400w monitor amp in a small club (seats less than 50)! I mean, ***? I just cannot stand a loud band! There is no reason to be loud espescially if you have PA support! You're defeating the whole purpose of having a PA! And you young drummers and guitards need a lesson on sound volume and nuances! Wailing away with your volume on 11 while the singer is singing does not make you a musician! TURN IT DOWN!!

You basicly summed up everything i said in my long rant of a thread I hate loud music too and why do bands need that much speaker/wattage for small clubs. I think maybe our guys think its looks cool ...again the 80's metal look big amps,drums big everything. I'm sick of hauling it setting it up tearing it down and being told " you guys were great but you need to turn down". I'm tired of it all and arguing with my band.

 

[Bayou_Brawler]

I swear to God the Marshall 100 watt half stack is the worst invention of the past 40 years.

haha!

 

[ras1983]

Here's the deal, and you should discuss this with your bandmates:

is your band hired to provide background music while patrons enjoy their food/drinks? or is your band hired as the main act and the patrons come to see your band?

if its background music, then i'm afraid you will have to force the rest of the band to turn down, because background music should never be loud enough to drown out a conversation.

 

[Dkerwood]

You basicly summed up everything i said in my long rant of a thread I hate loud music too and why do bands need that much speaker/wattage for small clubs. I think maybe our guys think its looks cool ...again the 80's metal look big amps,drums big everything. I'm sick of hauling it setting it up tearing it down and being told " you guys were great but you need to turn down". I'm tired of it all and arguing with my band.

Quite honestly, we rarely break out our "big" PA rig anymore unless it's an outdoor and/or very important event. Usually we'll use a 6 channel Yamaha 2x300W mixer amp pushing 2 500W 15" mains and 2 200W 15" monitors. We still mic kick and snare, guitar, and 2 vocals through it. And guess what? We STILL have enough headroom that we can get too loud.

Yes, I could haul out the big guns and pour 1500W into 4 PA mains. We could push 900W into 4 monitors, we could haul out the 16 channel mixer to mix up the drums right. The biggest question is why?

 

[groovyastro]

how big is the place you are playing in??? I'm much more of a sound man than a bass player...lol

Sounds to me like he done exactly what he shouldn't have done,,,,, If he turned the monitors down, then you have to play louder to be heard...... I'd take the stage volume down, and the monitors up. In small gigs it's almost like you have to tune the mains and monitors together, because so much of the monitor can be heard... Let's face it, who really needs two half stacks and a huge bass rig to play a steak house or somthing of that nature..... I'd take the bass cab down to at least 4x10, tell your guitar player to unplug two of his speakers or somthin..... Your stage volume has to be huge.... How can you expect it to not be to loud.....

 

[bassbully43]

Quite honestly, we rarely break out our "big" PA rig anymore unless it's an outdoor and/or very important event. Usually we'll use a 6 channel Yamaha 2x300W mixer amp pushing 2 500W 15" mains and 2 200W 15" monitors. We still mic kick and snare, guitar, and 2 vocals through it. And guess what? We STILL have enough headroom that we can get too loud.

Yes, I could haul out the big guns and pour 1500W into 4 PA mains. We could push 900W into 4 monitors, we could haul out the 16 channel mixer to mix up the drums right. The biggest question is why?

So everything is going thru your mains? vocals also? how is it with out the subs. We carry those huge things for the kick drum to get miced thru and he says some vocals?

 

[bassbully43]

how big is the place you are playing in??? I'm much more of a sound man than a bass player...lol

Sounds to me like he done exactly what he shouldn't have done,,,,, If he turned the monitors down, then you have to play louder to be heard...... I'd take the stage volume down, and the monitors up. In small gigs it's almost like you have to tune the mains and monitors together, because so much of the monitor can be heard... Let's face it, who really needs two half stacks and a huge bass rig to play a steak house or somthing of that nature..... I'd take the bass cab down to at least 4x10, tell your guitar player to unplug two of his speakers or somthin..... Your stage volume has to be huge.... How can you expect it to not be to loud.....

It is like alot of the bar/rest wing type eateries square block building the whole front glass windows large exposed metal rafter ceiling with beer banners hanging down etc. I guess it would seat about 150 without the bar. I know what your saying about all those amps...too big..i can go to a 4x10 with no problem and still be loud enough so i know they can go to a 2x12 or single 12 also.

 

[Dkerwood]

So everything is going thru your mains? vocals also? how is it with out the subs. We carry those huge things for the kick drum to get miced thru and he says some vocals?

If you're playing less than 2-300 seats? Not really necessary. I mean, no, we don't get that 50hz punch from the kick drum, but we do still get plenty of bottom end from it. A good PA speaker can still handle a lot of that low end. The key is just not pushing TOO much lows through it. I almost never run bass through the PA if we're doing the "small" setup, although if she starts using her new small SWR 12" combo, I might. It's all about knowing your system and what it can handle.

As far as vocals in the sub? Man, be careful with that. I don't know where your crossover is set, but low vocal frequencies muddy up the mix real fast. If you're going to use a sub (we don't yet - just 4 full range in our big PA), a soundman I trust once told me that he doesn't run the PA signal crossed over into the sub. He simply dedicates the kick ONLY into the sub, doubles the bass guitar into the sub and the mains (ditto with keys or any percussion requiring a lot of bass support), and lets the mains handle everything else. I've heard him run sound, and his mixes are always extremely clear. I think he does it all with panning - L is main, R is sub.

Anyway, just remember that PA systems have changed somewhat, especially in our semi-pro level. Used to be that you'd have a box for each frequency - bass bins, middle box, and an enclosed tweeter/horn. Today, nearly every PA speaker you come in contact with is full range. FULL RANGE. That means that a sub is no longer merely covering its section of frequency, but is rather supplementing a lot of what's already there. You get plenty of "vocal lows" from the full range speakers.

 

[rebelbass]

I play in a southern rock band. We play large outside gigs and smaller to medium clubs. Keyboards,two guitars drums four singers. We bring full pa/lights most everywhere,everything mic'd up. I play bass,also run sound;if I need stuff in the pa Its in there if not it stays off. We play fairly loud,but try to accomodate club managers volume wishes (hey,they sign the check!) Our one guitar player has an 18watt handwired $$ amp. It gets louder than stink! He got carried away recently at an outside gig. 40" stage-trailer.6,000 watt pa and he was too loud! discipline. if the guitar guy can't do that I'm outta there,unless his name is Stevie Ray!

 

[bassbully43]

If you're playing less than 2-300 seats? Not really necessary. I mean, no, we don't get that 50hz punch from the kick drum, but we do still get plenty of bottom end from it. A good PA speaker can still handle a lot of that low end. The key is just not pushing TOO much lows through it. I almost never run bass through the PA if we're doing the "small" setup, although if she starts using her new small SWR 12" combo, I might. It's all about knowing your system and what it can handle.

As far as vocals in the sub? Man, be careful with that. I don't know where your crossover is set, but low vocal frequencies muddy up the mix real fast. If you're going to use a sub (we don't yet - just 4 full range in our big PA), a soundman I trust once told me that he doesn't run the PA signal crossed over into the sub. He simply dedicates the kick ONLY into the sub, doubles the bass guitar into the sub and the mains (ditto with keys or any percussion requiring a lot of bass support), and lets the mains handle everything else. I've heard him run sound, and his mixes are always extremely clear. I think he does it all with panning - L is main, R is sub.

Anyway, just remember that PA systems have changed somewhat, especially in our semi-pro level. Used to be that you'd have a box for each frequency - bass bins, middle box, and an enclosed tweeter/horn. Today, nearly every PA speaker you come in contact with is full range. FULL RANGE. That means that a sub is no longer merely covering its section of frequency, but is rather supplementing a lot of what's already there. You get plenty of "vocal lows" from the full range speakers.

We dont put me thru the PA at all...i just go right out the amp to the crowd. He would mic the guitars at outdoor shows but not indoor shows? So you are saying our two 15" mains will work for the whole band indoors at such a small place and we dont need those moster 200lb subs just to pu the kick in? I feel that would be great...less loading and cut the volume to. If we just used 2 mains went to 2x12 cabs 50w heads got our drummer to lighten up and i stick with my 200w 4x10...i think we might keep em happy. I just think the band wont be happy and they will take it out on me.

 

[rpatter]

You have gotten a lot of good advice, but from what you are describing about your bandmates, none of it will be of any value to this band. Between your drummer and guitar #1, you have two pretty unreasonably people that are not likely to change. I think you should start looking for a new band or consider putting one together yourself. Being flexible and open to constructive criticism is every bit as important as skill on your instrument if you want to have a successful band. It sounds like you and guitar #2 are the only ones in the band that have that.

Ralf

Wow thanks for all the help...since there is so much info i am printing this and highlighting all the great points. Dkerwood thanks for taking the time to give your thoughts...thanks to you all.

I think alot has to do with the hard headedness of our guitarist /soundman. He said he will bring his wireless this gig so he can go out an check the levels. He does set the board from behind the PA..great point. The stacks are on the floor and he told our other guitarist who comlpained about not hearing last gig he was standing to close to his cabs. Someone asked why this was importent..well if there is to be any more gigs period its importent to me... also who will not remain a member if we lose this string of gigs due to our bands volume.

On the drummer i highly doubt any change will come here. He is stuck in the 80's and a big Rush fan...a good drummer but feels he needs to be seen and heard..has a huge double bass set but uses only one bass drum...the largest kit i have seen in a bar band since the 80's hair metal days. He said he is using his lightest sticks...also said he cant hear the band when he plays

Guitarist 2# is more than understanding and agrees we are too loud and will downsize his gear adjust whatever to help out.He will drop down to a 2x12 next gig.

Guitarist 1# funny you guys said in order to get a 100watt Marshall to sound good you have to push it. We have had one other band and other guitar players say his tone suks...very trebley.....i dont like it and he thinks he need to be louder than me and guitar #2 we had an arguement over this..i think he thinks lead guitar is louder cuz it ...you know is the lead
I got hinm to go to a 2x12 cab next gig...but i think he use a 50 w head...i pray.

Our vocals at almost every indoor gig get lost in the band mix...our lead singers wife/family say they always can barely hear him over the roar of the band.

Bassist (me)
will do whatever i need to save this gig and the band but my nerves are getting short...i am the sole booking person for this band minus a few outdoor parties this summer.

I am still reviewing and soaking in all your tips ..thanks again. I don't want to walk yet ...i am scared i wont find another gig or find something worse We(band) have a pretty good thing going but this and a few other ego problems cause it to be messy at times...stay tuned.

 

[bassbully43]

Here's the deal, and you should discuss this with your bandmates:

is your band hired to provide background music while patrons enjoy their food/drinks? or is your band hired as the main act and the patrons come to see your band?

if its background music, then i'm afraid you will have to force the rest of the band to turn down, because background music should never be loud enough to drown out a conversation.

No... i would'nt think of us as background music. I guess its like once most people leave for dinner we come in for the drinkers when it becomes more of a bar.

 

[Lazylion]

The guitar is the world's worst "it's too loud" instigator. Raunchy tones launching in your face. Oh, yeah. Doesn't take too many decibels to hurt the ears there. The most common problem I see is that classic "scooped" tone. Thus, to get sufficient volume to cut through the mix, you also get icepick-in-the-ear quality treble.

+100 That is the kiss of death.
The cure: point guitar players' speakers directly at their heads. If they insist on being too loud, make sure they get the full brunt of their own stupidity before anyone else has to. And keep an eye on them in case they turn the cab away - turn it right back.
It's gonna be hard to call yourself a professional if you lost all your gigs! You can be loud IF AND ONLY IF the tone is right! Icepick in the ear = unemployment.

 

[agreatheight]

For one thing, that 100 watt Marshall he plays through is too much. It takes lots of gain to get the overdriven tone that Marshalls are known for. He would be better off playing through a 50 watt head. You can drive those with much less volume.

50 watts is still likely be a bit of overkill. I play in a rock cover band and for most gigs one guitarist plays a 45 watt Mesa Nomad combo and the other guitarist plays a 15! watt Matchless head. The 15 watt amp sounds way better, imo - he gets to crank it up and it sounds great but he doesn't take anyone's head off with it. If I was playing guitar the most watts I'd drag would be 30.

Good luck!

 

[txbasschik]

Until very recently, my husband's band had this exact same problem.

<<<Our vocals at almost every indoor gig get lost in the band mix...our lead singers wife/family say they always can barely hear him over the roar of the band.
>>>

They were so loud that the volume overwhelmed the songs. The songs are great, the vocals reminicent of Big Head Todd & The Monsters. But the wall of sound ran the songs right over. You couldn't just enjoy them...you were too busy trying to find a spot out on the patio, because your ears were bleeding.

The band family and friends all told them this, but they refused to listen. But when venue owners consistently asked them to turn down, they did.

They didn't have to turn down very much to accomplish what was needed, either. Just enough to take the edge off. This has had the effect of making them sound MUCH better, and has resulted in them getting more gigs, and doing well in a local Battle of the Bands. (An important one...its connected to Willie.)

Incidentally, their guitarist used to play in the band I'm in now. One reason he's not with them anymore is that they wouldn't let him play that Marshall tube amp just as loud as he liked.

Cherie

 

[tZer]

It does not matter how anyone in or associated with the band "feels" about how loud or quiet the band is; it is how the manager/owner/person signing your paycheck feels that matters.

They booked you and they can refuse to book you. If they say that you are too loud, you are too loud and need to adjust you volume noticably or be prepared to not be hired back.

I have been in a number of gigs where the manager has said that he wanted us to turn down - we turn down. Mostly the reason they do that is because the bar/restaurant is NOT a "music only venue" per se and the manager is trying to maintain a volume level that is conducive to the patrons being able to converse - and not have to scream at the top of their lungs to be heard.

Sometimes it baffled me why the manager even hired a band in the first place knowing that it is virtually impossible for a 4 or 5 piece, classic rock band to be anything but loud - or at least louder then a juke box... come on... classic rock is music that is drum and guitar-driven and drums, even in the best of situations, are loud. That's why it's called a "cymbal CRASH!" not a "cymbal 'warm summer's day breeze'" - but still, if you are getting paid, the club manager is the last word in how you sound.

One of the bottom-line reasons to play in a classic rock cover band is to get paid. If you want to get paid, you have to do what the owner/manager says. Now if you are fortunate enough not to care about getting paid, you can afford to be much more picky about what clubs you play. Make a list of the ones that let you "do it your way" and screw the ones with the volume issues. Otherwise get your band to pull their collective heads outta their a$$es and realize that they are hired to do a job and the person paying you decides if you did it or not.

 

[txbasschik]

It also a major factor that sets professionals apart from rank amatuers.

Yeppers!!!

At first, they were bummed about turning down. I think they'd heard themselves "just so" for so long, it was uncomfortable for them. But they quickly got used to it. And they had the immediate reward of their fan base a) being able to sit in the same room when they played and b) coming up and saying, over and over, "Y'all sounded SO GOOD tonight! I see you've turned down a bit. You sound SO GOOD now!"

Cherie