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You're too loud!!!!!!!!!

B

bassbully43

Jul 1, 2005
1,193
4
64
#1
O.k. guys heres my rant ...please help me!

I play in a classic rock cover band that is somewhat new to our area. bookings are tuff and the money not so good but we have done o.k and did a few parties that paid well this summer. The band is progressing and i have booked all of our bar type gigs. I have used the internet, going to bars (cold call) etc and landed us a few in local bars. I just got us the best gig yet...several gigs with a chain of wing /beer type eateries right in our area. If all goes well they are going to keep us booked until spring of 07' when they stop having bands for the summer. The last two indoor bars gigs were we warned we were too loud...the manager i booked thru got angry at our guitarist -soundman during the last one and bands were soon not playing there anymore including us. We played our first gig last week of our new gigs and guess what 3 songs in the booking manger who i worked with to get the gigs said turn down please you are too loud. I told our guitarist who runs the sound who fiddled with the board...i noticed no diffrence...i took a smaller amp and couldnt be heard and he kept telling me to turn up.When we took a break the new manager who took over for the night said you guys are good but please turn down. I told our soudman/guitarist who replied .."well i will back the monitors off some":eyebrow: What the %^#$ is that going to do i thought...but i know from the past if you question him he gets ticked off...a how dare you tell me how to do the sound type...he said he used to do pro sound:eyebrow: Well we finally got it right and played on.

I spoke to the booking manger this week who firmly said we need to turn down this week when we return. She said everything else was fine but the band is too loud for the club. I took a hint that if we dont we will lose this and all the other gigs for this club.

The problem is when i tell our guitarist /soundman this and our leader drummer they want to make up excuses and blame the club, the manger etc...i say hey they are hiring us and paying us to perform and we must adapt to their liking ...no questions ...just do it. I get an attitude and a well we will do what we have too and they will just have to tell us what and when we need to back it off...this is the way this band works:mad:

I sware if we lose this gig i am quiting this band. i work hard for these gigs and sell the band, to have a manger ask us to do something and my bandmates complain and not be willing to comply is a slap in my face...i get the gigs ...they show up play and get paid. If i will help i can list our equipment...lets just say real quick its this...

Guitar #1
Marshall1/2 stack
100watt head
Gibson guitars w effects

Guitar #2
Mesa boogie 50w
Or orange AD200 i think 60w
Mesa 1/2 stack speakers
Gibson guitars

Bass (me)
GK 300 watt head
6x10 cabs can be changed to a 4x10 2x10 0r all 6
Eden Nemisis 200 watt 4x10 combo (used at last gig)
Fender passive basses (sans amp used for tone)

PA
can get full details but a
mix board
4 monitors
2- 600 watt power amps One to monitors 1 to PA
Other eqs
2 mains 12s i think w horns
two huge 15 subs with horns
mikes etc

Drummer
large Ludwig set ...think Neal Peart from Rush ...his idol on drums
plays very hard and loud.

Well this is some of my huge rant ...sorry but the band and my future with them could ride on this problem. Thanks!
 
#3
I guess it all depends on the type of music you guys play..
well I am prejustice.. but I never think it is the bass that makes people think it is too loud.. usually the guitars, cymbals and vocals that take you r head off.. 1/2 stack 100 watt marshall... well in oder to get that to sound any good you nee dto play it fairly loud IMHO... you can use that on a areana stage once miked up.
But for a club? can you say overkill... thats all just my opinion...
this summer i played some larger rooms and the guitar players were still too loud on stage to get a decent monitor mix. .and they used 1/2 stacks in big places.
If they cant turn lower try to get them to place a piece of clear plexi glass in front of their cabs... then they can lower the monitors and that will lower the PA eventually... maybe........
I almost cringe when i see a large guitar rig... one of my favorite gigs was when the band mixed itself around the acoustic drum kit. the kit being the focal point since it is acoustic.. I used a 4x10 with my SVT head and the guitar player had a small 60s Fender Deluxe.. its about 22 watts. and sounded GREAT.... the band sounded like a record mix on stage.. and that was blissful nirvana to me...
You know, build the stage mix from the groud up like you would a studio mix... drums.. bass.. make those two gel.. then guitar , keys.... etc.... guitar guys nee dto think icing on the cake and not full throttle... easer said than done... did i already say i hate guitar players.?. hahahha
try the plexiglass in front of the guitar rigs.....
THD hotplate...
tell the bone heads if they dont help provide a more subtle mix that the gig will be gone..
me personally .. i would quit.... and find other players that get it.. IMHO
i did a local gig last night where the guitar player brough a Mesa Lonestar and a Boutique amp and cranked them in a restarant/club gig... I have no isea what guitar players are thinking sometimes..
Best of luck... i feel ya pain...
 
#4
I don't see what the big deal is about playing quieter. Your guitarist probably realizes that his amp sounds crappy unless he drives it hard. Tell him to get a Power Brake or a Hot Plate so he can keep his precious tone. I hope he doesn't blow it for you.
 
#5
I have had in the past, and still have that problem now. Always seems the guitarist has to play 3 levels higher than anyone else in the band. He can't hear when I signal the changes, I can't hear the drums or the vocals. When I tell him, he says OK but I can tell he is kinda ticked about it. 10 minutes later he is up to 3 levels above again.

For one thing, that 100 watt Marshall he plays through is too much. It takes lots of gain to get the overdriven tone that Marshalls are known for. He would be better off playing through a 50 watt head. You can drive those with much less volume.

You can also play a recording of you guys if you think that will help.

Bottom line, you are an employee for the club/bar owner. He is the boss. If you don't follow his intructions, say goodbye to future bookings.
 
#7
I so don't understand this whole line of thought. Tell your guitarist to TURN THE &^*O DOWN! He can enjoy his precious great tone in his basement by himself. How hard is it to understand, you aren't getting any more gigs there or other places if he doesn't turn down. I swear to God the Marshall 100 watt half stack is the worst invention of the past 40 years. If all guitarists played through 22 watt tube heads, the world would be a better place.
 
#9
The inability to control your instrument is the hallmark of an amature. IMHO.

Having said that, did you think it was too loud?

Frequently when a civillian tells you it's too loud what they really mean is that there is a frequency somewhere in the mix that is hurting their ears. It's especially prevalent if you're trying to mix from behind the mains onstage.

It's amazing how loud you can play without complaint if there's not brassy guitar or PA poking the bartender in the ear.

and there ain't a guitar player on the planet that really needs more than one 12" speaker...
 
#12
I'll never understand guitar players who use half stacks for small bars/clubs then b*&ch and gripe that they have to turn up to get their "tone". Get a smaller amp, it's not that hard to figure out.

I say meet up with everyone before the gig and say we HAVE to turn down or the booking agent said they will fire us on the spot if we don't. Kinda puts them in the situation of "do it, or else".
 
#13
It's worth noting that most club owners want their patrons and beer guzzlers to be able to converse with one another in case they aren't into the music.

Bars (especially) have regulars who prefer jawboning with other regulars and they can get annoyed if they have to compete with the band when they're more interested in BSing than listening.

Bar owners commonly are found behind the bar paying attention to what's happening. If their bartenders and beer guzzling customers are having to yell at one another to order drinks then he/she will notice. This will be seen as a problem and the band will be viewd as the cause.
 
#14
After working in churches for as long as I have, I like to consider myself the king of the "right" volume.

Step one: As said before, the drummer dictates the minimum volume. If he's beating the snot out of his kit (especially the cymbals), the rest of the band has to be fairly loud to keep up. My drummer keeps toward the lower end - playing loud enough to get good tone from the drums and cymbals, but not so loud as to wash out the band. I then mic him up just enough to spread the drum sound out across the stage (one of my pet peeves is being able to easily localize stage sound sources from the audience).

Step 2: Make sure the bassist can be heard. My bassist uses a 300W head into a 2x12 cab. Boost the low mids for punch without a ton of (perceived) volume. We run her into the PA mainly to reinforce those low mids.

Step 3: The guitar is the world's worst "it's too loud" instigator. Raunchy tones launching in your face. Oh, yeah. Doesn't take too many decibels to hurt the ears there. The most common problem I see is that classic "scooped" tone. Thus, to get sufficient volume to cut through the mix, you also get icepick-in-the-ear quality treble. Boost those mids a bit, cut the treble and the bass (I run my open backed guitar amp flat on the EQ, and my closed back usually has the bass knob rolled WAY off). That helps the guitar to cut through the mix.

Step 4: This is a big one. If you've got a big halfstack pumping out 100 dB of sound, and then you MIC IT THROUGH THE PA, you're asking for trouble. Usually, depending on the gig, my guitar amp is set on 1.5 on the volume knob, then I stick a 57 in front of it and listen to it through the monitor. If the drummer is having problems hearing me, I'll move the amp behind him and turn it up to about 3. I've seen bands that realize that they don't need 100W of guitar amp PLUS 1500W of PA to push their guitar and go with just the amp. That's fine, as long as you know what you're doing. I just get into that localized source pet peeve again, and I prefer all of the band through the PA. I mean, a PA speaker is designed for even sound distribution. A 30W Greenback is not.

Step 5: Step 4 is helped out immensely by having an amp than can operate relatively softly. Whether this means solid state or a power brake is up to you. Personally, I use a solid state amp mic'd through a tube preamp. The important thing is that you have control of your amp and can operate at all volumes. FWIW, some of the biggest, fattest tones in rock guitar recordings have come not from a Mesa fullstack, but a 10" Fender tube amp mic'd up.

Step 6: Bring your vocals up to the point where you can sing over this whole shebang and be heard. One of my other pet peeves is vocals buried in the mix. Why sing words if you're not going to turn them up to the point where people can hear them?

Step 7: Now we're getting to the nitty gritty. Go out front and listen. If you're not singing, that's even easier. Just step out front and listen to the mix. Get that where you want it. Take note of the problem instruments - guitar and cymbals. If you start detecting problems mid gig, these will be the first to go. Once the gig gets going, remember who you are playing for. If the answer is for you and your bandmates, you have an excellent garage for that. If the answer is the audience, now we're getting somewhere. Fingers in ears is usually a good sign to turn down. Ditto if people move 30 feet away from your PA speakers.

Step 8: In the event that you have to turn down, ease off the problem instruments first - first cymbals, then guitars and drums. Never ever simply drop vocals to fix "too loud" problems. If you find yourself with too much bass buildup, try rolling off everything below 100 on the graphic EQ. In the end, remember that the vocal is the only thing that really needs your help to keep up. I once ran an outdoor gig with my PA. I mic'd up the guys' halfstacks, the drums, and even the bass. I tried to mix it, but they insisted upon running their amps full tilt. By the end of their set, the only thing on in the PA was the lead singer's mic (their drummer screamed into a mic - he was actually loud enough to be heard with the mic off). I left everything in their monitor so they didn't know that I had turned everything off, but even then, their stupid amps did more damage to their show than anything anyone else could do.

Step 9: Again, remember who you're playing for. If the people think you're too loud, they'll leave and won't remember you, much less be your fan. If the people REMEMBER you as being too loud, they'll never want to see you and will encourage their friends to avoid you as well. If word gets around between bar owners (they do talk, you know), they'll all stop hiring the "loud band". Ask any professional musician (especially bassists) and they'll have a story of playing a gig with the volume off, amp off, or instrument unplugged. Hey, if someone wants to pay me 50 bucks to sit for 30 minutes strumming on a silenced axe, that's no skin off my nose. I'll be slightly irritated, but I certainly won't thumb that fully-skinned nose at the person GIVING ME MONEY TO PLAY MUSIC.

Listen, it really does help. Live music is an experience - sights, sounds, lights, volume. My band has played with (technically) much better bands, but fan support ends up going to us because we don't insist upon playing loud enough to make your ears bleed. Will we play loud enough to rock your socks off? Heck yes! But you'll still be able to hear your car radio on the way home after one of our shows. We've even gotten gigs solely on the fact that we play at a reasonable volume (venue owners talk, remember).
 
#16
Honest, guys - it's most likely simpler than you think. Put the guitar and bass amps on top of road cases or chairs (you might have to pull the wheels off the half stacks to do so).

A half stack can be searingly loud but if the guitarist is standing right in front of it, he won't hear it. Why not? Because the sound is blasting out at his knees, not at his ears. Raise the cabinet so that it's at ear level, and he'll see how loud it is...

Of course, the drummer is probably too loud, too... :cool:
 
#17
TheDarkReaver said:
it's 'you are too loud' or even 'you're too loud'.
Click to expand...

+500

Assumming you have a contract for these gigs with YOUR manager:

1) Make a demo cd of all your tunes and covers.
2) find new a softer drummer have him/her learn the CD.
3) Do the same with the guitarist.
4) Fire the old band.
 
#18
Wow thanks for all the help...since there is so much info i am printing this and highlighting all the great points. Dkerwood thanks for taking the time to give your thoughts...thanks to you all.

I think alot has to do with the hard headedness of our guitarist /soundman. He said he will bring his wireless this gig so he can go out an check the levels. He does set the board from behind the PA..great point. The stacks are on the floor and he told our other guitarist who comlpained about not hearing last gig he was standing to close to his cabs. Someone asked why this was importent..well if there is to be any more gigs period its importent to me... also who will not remain a member if we lose this string of gigs due to our bands volume.

On the drummer i highly doubt any change will come here. He is stuck in the 80's and a big Rush fan...a good drummer but feels he needs to be seen and heard..has a huge double bass set but uses only one bass drum...the largest kit i have seen in a bar band since the 80's hair metal days. He said he is using his lightest sticks...also said he cant hear the band when he plays:eyebrow:

Guitarist 2# is more than understanding and agrees we are too loud and will downsize his gear adjust whatever to help out.He will drop down to a 2x12 next gig.

Guitarist 1# funny you guys said in order to get a 100watt Marshall to sound good you have to push it. We have had one other band and other guitar players say his tone suks...very trebley.....i dont like it and he thinks he need to be louder than me and guitar #2 we had an arguement over this..i think he thinks lead guitar is louder cuz it ...you know is the lead:smug:
I got hinm to go to a 2x12 cab next gig...but i think he use a 50 w head...i pray.

Our vocals at almost every indoor gig get lost in the band mix...our lead singers wife/family say they always can barely hear him over the roar of the band.

Bassist (me)
will do whatever i need to save this gig and the band but my nerves are getting short...i am the sole booking person for this band minus a few outdoor parties this summer.

I am still reviewing and soaking in all your tips ..thanks again. I don't want to walk yet ...i am scared i wont find another gig or find something worse:smug: We(band) have a pretty good thing going but this and a few other ego problems cause it to be messy at times...stay tuned.
 
#19
Get a sound man. Tell the guitarist that his playing is more important then the sound board.
The sound guy can keep your monitors at the pitch he likes and tune down the house.

Have you tried taping the performances? Sometimes this will show people that what they hear isn't what the audience hears.

Or have someone do a db check in different places in the venue.
 
#20
RLT said:
Get a sound man. Tell the guitarist that his playing is more important then the sound board.
The sound guy can keep your monitors at the pitch he likes and tune down the house.

Have you tried taping the performances? Sometimes this will show people that what they hear isn't what the audience hears.

Or have someone do a db check in different places in the venue.
Click to expand...

A soundman has been dicussed but it's not in the budget. We don't get alot to play in my parts as it is.
 

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