You're too loud!!!!!!!!!

[bassbully43]

I do NOT agree with this ONE lesson.

Subs are even MORE important at low volumes IMO.

They let the audience FEEL the music even when you are not that loud.

You can stick your head in a 400 watt sub going full bore and it isn't loud. Keep the subs so you can tickle their fannies.

The only thing he runs thru the subs is the kickdrum...alot of heavy huge cabs to carry for just a miced kick drum.

 

[bassbully43]

Well, if the guitarist/soundman, whatever he is, refuses to reduce volume, no matter what you suggest, well, then you have a people issue not a sound issue... If you like playin with this guy and he's in charge of the sound, then you'll just have to ride it out, your hands are tied. Believe me I've been in many bands, some I had a say so in and others I didn't... I would just explain to to the bar owner the way it was, so he wouldn't hold a hateful grudge against you... You never know, you might wanna play there again someday, maybe with a new group....lol

I have done this...told the manager it was out of my hands so i wouldnt look bad. I get the bookings and am pretty good at it and it sucks to get them upset over the volume of our band and wonder if i will ever be able to show my face in this club again with this band or any other. I talked to the guitarist /soundman last night about downsizing and he confused me again by saying " well i can go to a 2x12 cab but there is no reason to really...i can control my levels on my 4x10 ...no problem" really..i thought....it will be interesting to see. My bands gig got bumped to next weekend, we were to play this weekend but now its next weekend and yes we are to play several gigs for this very bar so we need to control the volume.

 

[Dkerwood]

+1 on the plexiglass in front of amps...

That or force your whole band to go with IEMs over monitors... and then turn people's amps down and up in the mix. If they want to go deaf, there's no need to drag the audience and the bandmembers with them. We auditioned an IEM a few weeks ago, and my drummer played SO quietly. Turns out he was turned up a little loud in the IEM, so he thought he was overplaying.

Oh, FWIW, Bassbully, "It's out of my hands" makes you look worse, IMO. It says that either you're unwilling to try (which I know isn't the case, but the bar owner might not), or the rest of your band is uncooperative, and by extension, unprofessional.

Turn down amps, point them at players' ears, turn up monitors, turn down mains. That or bring along a giant 15'x20' sheet of plexiglass that you can put in front of the stage to block stage volume... sigh...

High volume is a quick ticket to nowheresville. I've NEVER heard a soundman complain, "Hey, guys, your amps are turned down a little too much. Can you turn it up for a better tone?" or "Can you hit that snare a little harder? I'm having a hard time getting signal out here."

 

[jimb213]

depending on the layout of where you're playing, can you have the amps on the sides of the stage, pointing across it, instead of out into the audience? Then mic 'em up and run 'em through the PA. They get their loud volume, but there's no ear bleeding section in front of the stage.

 

[bassbully43]

depending on the layout of where you're playing, can you have the amps on the sides of the stage, pointing across it, instead of out into the audience? Then mic 'em up and run 'em through the PA. They get their loud volume, but there's no ear bleeding section in front of the stage.

We have started to turn the amps in..but we didnt mic them. The plexi glass idea..i see your point but i just agree we need to lift the amps turn down adjust the Pa and get those guys heads out of their you know whats

 

[Dkerwood]

Just tell them it looks COOL to lift the amps up! Lol...

IMHO, that's the only reason for TWO 4x12 cabs - so that the bottom one can lift the top one up.

 

[groovyastro]

I have done this...told the manager it was out of my hands so i wouldnt look bad. I get the bookings and am pretty good at it and it sucks to get them upset over the volume of our band and wonder if i will ever be able to show my face in this club again with this band or any other. I talked to the guitarist /soundman last night about downsizing and he confused me again by saying " well i can go to a 2x12 cab but there is no reason to really...i can control my levels on my 4x10 ...no problem" really..i thought....it will be interesting to see. My bands gig got bumped to next weekend, we were to play this weekend but now its next weekend and yes we are to play several gigs for this very bar so we need to control the volume.

Ok, then I have a question??? What does he have run through the mains, besides the kick drum and vocals?? The rest of the drum set? Don't ask me why this is, but this is how it is, A drum kit not in the mains, sounds horrible, I don't care if you have dw's or yamaha's or what they are, for instance, our drummer has yamaha recording customs, best you can buy, most recorded drums in history, we practice, he's not mic'd up, sounds like crap, now, in this little tiny room where we practice, drums are unbelievably loud with out being mic'd, you can mic them, put them through the monitors we use to practice, and it no longer hurts your ears, it feels the sound up and doesn't seem as loud... Even though in all reality they are louder, they don't hurt your ears and are not perceived to be as loud.... Same way with electric guitar, everything needs to be in the mix, everything,.... I really don't think that your band is too loud, I think certain frequencies are too loud and you don't have a good mix, remember the best sound men I know live by one rule, low stage volume and high mains, let the pa do the work....

 

[bassbully43]

Ok, then I have a question??? What does he have run through the mains, besides the kick drum and vocals?? The rest of the drum set? Don't ask me why this is, but this is how it is, A drum kit not in the mains, sounds horrible, I don't care if you have dw's or yamaha's or what they are, for instance, our drummer has yamaha recording customs, best you can buy, most recorded drums in history, we practice, he's not mic'd up, sounds like crap, now, in this little tiny room where we practice, drums are unbelievably loud with out being mic'd, you can mic them, put them through the monitors we use to practice, and it no longer hurts your ears, it feels the sound up and doesn't seem as loud... Even though in all reality they are louder, they don't hurt your ears and are not perceived to be as loud.... Same way with electric guitar, everything needs to be in the mix, everything,.... I really don't think that your band is too loud, I think certain frequencies are too loud and you don't have a good mix, remember the best sound men I know live by one rule, low stage volume and high mains, let the pa do the work....

None of the other drums are miced...just the kick thru the subs. The mains have vocals. The guitar amps go stright to the crowd no mic at all...monitors are for vocals only. We have miced drums and guitars when we played outdoors this past summer and i thought we sounded good...but again we were outdoors. I also feel if the guitars were miced he could control the levels better....we will see.

 

[Dkerwood]

None of the other drums are miced...just the kick thru the subs. The mains have vocals. The guitar amps go stright to the crowd no mic at all...monitors are for vocals only. We have miced drums and guitars when we played outdoors this past summer and i thought we sounded good...but again we were outdoors. I also feel if the guitars were miced he could control the levels better....we will see.

GAH! I hate going to see bands like this, because 9 out of 10 times, the guitar amps are TOO LOUD and the vocals end up being overpowered. From what you describe, you're one of the 9.

I do find it ironic that you're going to haul out 2 big subs JUST for kick. 1 will do the job, and frankly, if you have decent quality mains, they can handle it.

I can only remember twice in the last year that we didn't mic up everything (or as much as possible). Once we were doing an outdoor gig with a 100W PA (we supplemented that with a slight ly larger PA head but very small speakers). For that, obviously, we pushed vocal only through the PA.

The other time, we only had 200W mains, and a tiny mixer. We had a 1500W amp, but I wasn't keen on blowing up the speakers. It was plenty loud enough, and I even ran a line out from my guitar into the PA to round it out.

Other than that, for small gigs we run 300W through 6 channels - 2 vocals, 1 guitar, kick and snare (and 300W for stage monitors). For large gigs, we run 1500W through the main PA and 900W to the monitors. There we mic up everything - 2 vocals, guitar, bass, 4 drum channels (plus an overhead if it's absolutely necessary), acoustic guitar, keys... whatever else we have to try to plug in through our 16 channel mixer.

I've heard some of the most musically talented bands sound like CRAP because they decide to let their Marshall push to the back of the house rather than their Mackie PA. Mic it up and be amazed at how much bigger and better it sounds. Heck, put your guitarist on wireless and let him see how much better it is.

Now, if you're running a terribly small PA, you're just out of luck. BUT, if your mains are in the 15" range, and anywhere over 3-500W, there's no reason why you can't put more through them. That's what they're designed for, after all.

 

[groovyastro]

GAH! I hate going to see bands like this, because 9 out of 10 times, the guitar amps are TOO LOUD and the vocals end up being overpowered. From what you describe, you're one of the 9.

I do find it ironic that you're going to haul out 2 big subs JUST for kick. 1 will do the job, and frankly, if you have decent quality mains, they can handle it.

I can only remember twice in the last year that we didn't mic up everything (or as much as possible). Once we were doing an outdoor gig with a 100W PA (we supplemented that with a slight ly larger PA head but very small speakers). For that, obviously, we pushed vocal only through the PA.

The other time, we only had 200W mains, and a tiny mixer. We had a 1500W amp, but I wasn't keen on blowing up the speakers. It was plenty loud enough, and I even ran a line out from my guitar into the PA to round it out.

Other than that, for small gigs we run 300W through 6 channels - 2 vocals, 1 guitar, kick and snare (and 300W for stage monitors). For large gigs, we run 1500W through the main PA and 900W to the monitors. There we mic up everything - 2 vocals, guitar, bass, 4 drum channels (plus an overhead if it's absolutely necessary), acoustic guitar, keys... whatever else we have to try to plug in through our 16 channel mixer.

I've heard some of the most musically talented bands sound like CRAP because they decide to let their Marshall push to the back of the house rather than their Mackie PA. Mic it up and be amazed at how much bigger and better it sounds. Heck, put your guitarist on wireless and let him see how much better it is.

Now, if you're running a terribly small PA, you're just out of luck. BUT, if your mains are in the 15" range, and anywhere over 3-500W, there's no reason why you can't put more through them. That's what they're designed for, after all.

I couldn't agree with you more.... We mic up 2 guitar amps in stereo (that's 4 mics), 4 vocals, get this, 10 drum mics ( 5 toms, kick snare, hat, and overhead), these are all gated and compressed. Guitar amp mics are not gated only compressed.... Bass is run direct, keys are premixed and only use two channels in the main board (left and right), electronic drum brain for all those little sounds you may need once in a while, I run my acoustic direct outta my acoustic amp into the board in stereo.... I have a 24 channel board and I have one channel open ( I think) I don't know I'd have to add all that up...lol but anyways we always, I don't care how small the gig is set up at least an 18" sub on each side and a main with a 15" with a great horn.... I've never had a complaint about being to loud.....

 

[JansenW]

A soundman has been dicussed but it's not in the budget. We don't get alot to play in my parts as it is.

No matter what you do, "too loud" will always be subjective. Get an inexpensive sound level meter and have someone (maybe the bar manager) measure it when and where it is too loud. Once you have an objective measurement, you can then begin make changes.

 

[Dkerwood]

No matter what you do, "too loud" will always be subjective. Get an inexpensive sound level meter and have someone (maybe the bar manager) measure it when and where it is too loud. Once you have an objective measurement, you can then begin make changes.

+1

 

[bassbully43]

This is how i feel ..here's why. i joined this band over a year ago, first real band ever had a couple in high school 25+years ago. Although i have written and played guitar and bass all my life i was still not so sure about my abilities. I then 4 years ago got very serious about bass and sold off all guitars and only play bass now and forever. I then got decent enough i felt to try out for a band and well i was better than i thought and nailed two try outs first time out with established bands. I have had many commpliments from band members and people who see me play on my playing and tone...it makes me try all the harder. I am just getting well rounded in bass gear and amps etc but still have alot to learn. I know a tiny bit about setting up sound and running boards etc but it is out of my hands dure to our Guitar /soundman head of band runs the show here.I understand you guys know more than he and you have proved it in your very informative posts. The problem is i need to try to get him to listen to me. I needed the education you guys gave me on this board...Ala.. a crash course in PA and sound...thank you very much for your time. I learned alot and now have some info and ammo for a fight i feel must be fought if i am to stay in this band and so it can keep gigs. I have a background in sales/marketing and i sell this band and get the bookings...this i am the head of and will not go on selling a product (our band) to other places to play knowing i will be setting us and them up for problems with us being to loud. We go back and play this Friday at this club ...pray for me

 

[Dkerwood]

If you really want him to listen, have him come read this thread. He can post his arguments as well. Maybe he has great arguments for why he does what he does, and maybe some of us can help him come to come to a happy medium.