I'm not sure I'd call bone a "white plasticky" material. It's made of bone! They do make nuts from plastic and it's very different feeling, looking, and sounding than bone.
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ZERO FRET?
- Thread starter BigMikeW
- Start date
I couldn't give you the exact physics behind why playing off of a nut dramatically changes the sound, and it may not be THAT dramatic. As you mentioned, the timbre is different. Maybe it's the difference in material and the fact that the string is being terminated around part of it's diameter, and not just resting on a flat surface, I really don't know. Open strings do have a different flavour on different basses but it always seems to be a "live" spot.Mike Dimin said:
I need to admit that I get really "mental" about my equipment and playing so some of what I "hear" may actually be what I see and feel, but if I think a note is going to jump off the neck, and I want it to, it probably will, that could be where the extra b@lls is coming from.
I don't think there is enough market regarding this seemingly small detail to warrant a lot of fuss over it (however I may be wrong, hence the existance of this thread) but I'll submit an opinion nonetheless.
I've always noticed a difference when playing fretted and open on any instrument I've played. The sound is a little "different" on instruments with a "regular" style nut vs. a zero fret. The Steinbergers I've owned did seem to be more closely matched to the fretted sound, IIRC. I really notice this on my Dingwall. It's an older one with a zero fret. Due to the distance it is from the "nut" that is actually a string guide, it threw my playing off at first when I initially got it. I like having the sound similarity, and I think Lowphat will agree, Dingwalls have plenty down where it counts!
My question is, how can one get more of that b@llsy tone when fretting? The only thing that changes when you fret a string (besides scale length at that moment) is you introduce your finger onto the other side of the fret. It would seem that one's finger could introduce some sound absorbtion (due to dampening of the rapid stretching and releasing of the string) because it is soft and not a hard, fixed object attached to the neck. I don't ever use a capo, but a good, solid capo should come close to reproducing the sound of the nut/0-fret. I notice the decay when I'm fretting is much sooner than an open note, yet the sound of the string is still closer to when it is open. Thoughts on this?
I guess, if this is a feature that will cause someone to or not to buy a bass, they should probably go custom.
I've always noticed a difference when playing fretted and open on any instrument I've played. The sound is a little "different" on instruments with a "regular" style nut vs. a zero fret. The Steinbergers I've owned did seem to be more closely matched to the fretted sound, IIRC. I really notice this on my Dingwall. It's an older one with a zero fret. Due to the distance it is from the "nut" that is actually a string guide, it threw my playing off at first when I initially got it. I like having the sound similarity, and I think Lowphat will agree, Dingwalls have plenty down where it counts!
My question is, how can one get more of that b@llsy tone when fretting? The only thing that changes when you fret a string (besides scale length at that moment) is you introduce your finger onto the other side of the fret. It would seem that one's finger could introduce some sound absorbtion (due to dampening of the rapid stretching and releasing of the string) because it is soft and not a hard, fixed object attached to the neck. I don't ever use a capo, but a good, solid capo should come close to reproducing the sound of the nut/0-fret. I notice the decay when I'm fretting is much sooner than an open note, yet the sound of the string is still closer to when it is open. Thoughts on this?
I guess, if this is a feature that will cause someone to or not to buy a bass, they should probably go custom.
To me, jazz style or whatever, a 0 fret wouldn't make any difference in aesthetics. It's the sound that counts! I wonder if anyone would even see it on a regular gig...
I love a zero fret! I have one on my Trace Elliot T-Basses!! As far as how they look on a Jazz bass. I think it looks killer. I use a T-Bass as my main bass.
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As far as tone, my bass sounds way better than yours, and yours, and yours
. Listen to the clip. This is into an Aphex Punch factory and into my Mac and GarageBand. Both knobs full on, EQ flat on the bass. Nothing added in Garage Band. The slap sound is sick. This thing absolutely smokes a Sadowsky - no matter where it was made. Oh, this is the blue one by the way.
Click [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] for the clip.
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As far as tone, my bass sounds way better than yours, and yours, and yours
. Listen to the clip. This is into an Aphex Punch factory and into my Mac and GarageBand. Both knobs full on, EQ flat on the bass. Nothing added in Garage Band. The slap sound is sick. This thing absolutely smokes a Sadowsky - no matter where it was made. Oh, this is the blue one by the way.Click [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] for the clip.
¤ sigh ¤
Looks:
Nobody but the player will notice the zero fret - if even he does... If the distance between the nut (the sideways control) is short, why even think about it?
Tone:
Distinction. That is what the zero fret gives. The tone is more accurate, has more fundamental and sustain. Simply because of the material, the exact string height and the proper location (if it's built properly, of course).
A double-acting nut (both sideways control and witness point) will add the following: missfit to the string, both sideways and at the bottom; differences between the string in string height; variation in material from other witness points; lenghtwise misplacement, which impairs intonation; et al. Not that all will be on every piece, but they will all come at one time or another, in unpredictable combinations. Even though the build process is state of the art.
Tone is more complete, more accurate, lively and sutained with a zero fret.
Seems that "B@LLSY" means wooly or something.
Fretless? Well, that depends on the relief. With a true flat board, you need a minor ridge at the top, to give the string some space to move. With more relief, you could actually let the string rest on the edge of the fingerboard (if it's hard enough).
Looks:
Nobody but the player will notice the zero fret - if even he does... If the distance between the nut (the sideways control) is short, why even think about it?
Tone:
Distinction. That is what the zero fret gives. The tone is more accurate, has more fundamental and sustain. Simply because of the material, the exact string height and the proper location (if it's built properly, of course).
A double-acting nut (both sideways control and witness point) will add the following: missfit to the string, both sideways and at the bottom; differences between the string in string height; variation in material from other witness points; lenghtwise misplacement, which impairs intonation; et al. Not that all will be on every piece, but they will all come at one time or another, in unpredictable combinations. Even though the build process is state of the art.
Tone is more complete, more accurate, lively and sutained with a zero fret.
Seems that "B@LLSY" means wooly or something.
Fretless? Well, that depends on the relief. With a true flat board, you need a minor ridge at the top, to give the string some space to move. With more relief, you could actually let the string rest on the edge of the fingerboard (if it's hard enough).
From you're statement it's possible that "B@LLSY" could mean incomplete, inaccurate and lethargic.Suburban said:? sigh
Tone:
Distinction. That is what the zero fret gives. The tone is more accurate, has more fundamental and sustain. Simply because of the material, the exact string height and the proper location (if it's built properly, of course).
A double-acting nut (both sideways control and witness point) will add the following: missfit to the string, both sideways and at the bottom; differences between the string in string height; variation in material from other witness points; lenghtwise misplacement, which impairs intonation; et al. Not that all will be on every piece, but they will all come at one time or another, in unpredictable combinations. Even though the build process is state of the art.
Tone is more complete, more accurate, lively and sutained with a zero fret.
Seems that "B@LLSY" means wooly or something.
You know my bass, or basses, don't seam to suffer any symptoms of this "double-acting nut disease" you speak of. Things like great intonation and good sustain are so important, I have to believe that if they could be improved significantly by using a zero fret we would see many more zero frets in use today.
I could understand these problems you mentioned cropping-up during the construction process, and see how the use of a zero fret could give more consistant results, but if the traditional nut design left so much to be desired then I doubt so many top luthiers would bother using it.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed] is another sample of the tone from a J style bass with a zero fret. Please note the tone and not the playing. I left both knobs full on and the EQ flat. I don't think there is a single thing missing from the tone, and to my ears the slap sounds great.
'Tradition', my friend, is an extremely heavy argument in guitar design - and even more in sales!lowphatbass said:
'Technical advantages' is not....
Also note, that anything well done is good enough, zero fret or 'd-a' nut. Anything badly done...well, you follow.
can one buy a nut that has a zero fret "built into it". This concept of such a nut may be way off, but the idea intrigues me.
zero fret on a fretless isn't impossible, it's like a wooden nut with no grooves. this approach will give you that mwah, that your used to hearing. Some builder do use this, like Odd Helge Listerud. He's Norwegian, I think I'm going to have him build a neck for a project fretless actually.ryco said:
