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Zoom B3 As Preamp Part 2

IMHO, the 3dB difference should be negligible, even under recording scrutiny.

Indeed the 3 dB is certainly minor, but not the metal case, not the XLR out, not the global parameters such as total level, not the 3 stomps, not the completeness of the set of "effects", not the editing via computer. All these are things I wish to have in such a device. Therefore, firmware please!!
 
Guys,

as some of you are anxiously awaiting firmware version 2.0 including four effect slots and so on, I kept thinking about it. It sort of struck me when I turned my box around and had a look at the s/n: 22tsd odd. That means, up to now, some 25000 B3s might have been sold worldwide. I started thinking: OK, I paid € 165,- incl. 19% sales tax, be $ 200,- in the US. What might the margin of this beast be? Consider, there's R&D (no, not R&B in this case), COGs, A&P, distribution margin, retailer margin, you name it. Well, all things taken into account, I don't think they are earning more than $50 per box at best, most probably less. Thinking of 25.000 sold B3s, that would add up to max $1.25M worldwide. This is actually not too much.

Bottom line: no, I don't think, there will be a V 2.0, if V 2.0 means new functions. Zoom will issue bugfixes and maybe some smallish improvements, as long as they fit in the current product description. Consider: a functionality extension like a 4th effect slot would require them to change product description, ads, box, whatever, this would cost them money without generating more than some incremental sales. There's 25000 B3s out there and the new functions are just one free firmware upgrade away. No way. They will milk this box as long as possible and add new functionalities not before they bring a new model.
 
Yes, great list !!

I am with you Andreas : the B3 offers unique features.
The so simple ease of access to all these stompboxes + the capacity to turn them on and off individually is why I love it so much.

But as I understand it the B1Xon could be a good alternative to the ms-60b for those who aren't looking for the smallest multieffect.
 
Guys,

as some of you are anxiously awaiting firmware version 2.0 including four effect slots and so on, I kept thinking about it. It sort of struck me when I turned my box around and had a look at the s/n: 22tsd odd. That means, up to now, some 25000 B3s might have been sold worldwide. I started thinking: OK, I paid € 165,- incl. 19% sales tax, be $ 200,- in the US. What might the margin of this beast be? Consider, there's R&D (no, not R&B in this case), COGs, A&P, distribution margin, retailer margin, you name it. Well, all things taken into account, I don't think they are earning more than $50 per box at best, most probably less. Thinking of 25.000 sold B3s, that would add up to max $1.25M worldwide. This is actually not too much.

Bottom line: no, I don't think, there will be a V 2.0, if V 2.0 means new functions. Zoom will issue bugfixes and maybe some smallish improvements, as long as they fit in the current product description. Consider: a functionality extension like a 4th effect slot would require them to change product description, ads, box, whatever, this would cost them money without generating more than some incremental sales. There's 25000 B3s out there and the new functions are just one free firmware upgrade away. No way. They will milk this box as long as possible and add new functionalities not before they bring a new model.

How can you determine how many were sold based on your SN?

The rest of your logic is plausible, however.
 
How can you determine how many were sold based on your SN?

The rest of your logic is plausible, however.

I guess Heisenbass simply guessed, right?

But actually, I would think that small selling numbers are a reason to offer a firmware update. Of course bass players are always, as I said in an earlier contribution here, rather neglected in comparison to guitarists. Everything goes slower and there are less products. Like Line6, which has completely given up on us bass players (I still own two POD X3s, which I plan to sell asap). Yet, for the G3 Zoom has not shied away from going through all the trouble of updating not only the firmware, but also the manuals packaging etc. as Heisenbass previously described. I am no businessman (actually far from it), but I could imagine that when sales of a product such as the G3 or B3 start declining, you may wish to give it a boost with something like a firmware update, not as expensive as manufacturing an entire new product, and sales may start climbing up again.

So we may have done ourselves a disservice so far ;) ;) ;) : Either by lauding this piece of equipment B3 here so much, that sales are still going up, or, we have failed to complain loud enough about our dissatisfaction of getting neglected relative to G3 owners. ;) ;) ;)

I guess it is rather the first. ;) ;) ;).

On more serious grounds: It may well be that sales of the B3 are still too good and the boost from a function enhancing firmware update is not yet "necessary". We owner tend to count less, here in this forum I fear in particular: We already own one. :bawl:

As I said, I'm not a businessman and maybe my speculations here are only wild and have little to do with Zoom's reasoning. I also trust that the company will not completely forget its faithful customers, since word of mouth is in today's Facebook world nothing to light-heartedly neglect or dismiss. Moreover, I have a rather good opinion of Zoom. I believe they are honestly and earnestly also committed to good products and here I subsume of course also the B3 (but, admittedly, rather not the hardware of the B1on/B1Xon ;) ).

What I still hope they will do is to offer a firmware update similar to the one they offered for the G3, while also offering the B3X (expression pedal included). Since the case and hardware is basically identical to the G3X, the manufacturing of it by using a different case color and a different software only, should not be more expensive than it was for the G3/G3X. And I still trust somehow Zoom will do something along those lines, since many companies have come with new products in this way: First on the low end and next time on the higher end of their product ranges. Since the B3 is on the high end, but the B1on/B1Xon was clearly on the low end, I expect something to happen next on the high end. The question is only, what exactly and when exactly?

Or do you all think differently and have much better reasons for this than what I as a bad businessman can offer/have? ;)

Cheers,
Andreas

:bassist: :bassist: :bassist:
 
I've owned the B3 for a few weeks and it has been a love hate relationship. My target use is based completely around the amp sims and the EQ and compressor options. There have been several times where I've considered sending it back because I couldn't tell if it was truly enhancing my experience.

One thing I've learned is the following equation

Zoom B3 = Patience

With all of the options, widgets and combinations the B3 can be overwhelming. If you keep it simple and try one thing at a time you may find more enjoyment.

Last night I used the Edit software and created 5 patches. Each patch was an amp sim (5 diff ones) set flat+ AcBsPre (for tone controls) + D-comp. I suppose I could have just used the amp sim tone controls but I wanted to have 1 patch that was preamp only. After some testing and tinkering I think I've finally gotten things where I like them.
 
...Or do you all think differently and have much better reasons for this than what I as a bad businessman can offer/have? ;)...

I strongly believe that we will only see B3 v2.0 firmware with a Mark II repackaging of the B3, exactly as did occur with the G3.

If the above should occur, I also predict Zoom will simultaneously release a new B3X product in the same chassis of the G3X.

The release of these new products should spark new sales, with the least development and production costs, while keeping the B3 (and G3) series thriving.

Cheers!
 
I've owned the B3 for a few weeks and it has been a love hate relationship. My target use is based completely around the amp sims and the EQ and compressor options. There have been several times where I've considered sending it back because I couldn't tell if it was truly enhancing my experience.

One thing I've learned is the following equation

Zoom B3 = Patience

With all of the options, widgets and combinations the B3 can be overwhelming. If you keep it simple and try one thing at a time you may find more enjoyment.

Last night I used the Edit software and created 5 patches. Each patch was an amp sim (5 diff ones) set flat+ AcBsPre (for tone controls) + D-comp. I suppose I could have just used the amp sim tone controls but I wanted to have 1 patch that was preamp only. After some testing and tinkering I think I've finally gotten things where I like them.


Just do not get overwhelmed/drowned in the versatility. Focus on a particular sound. Anything you like as a starting point, then concentrate on that only. Try improving it, till you really like it. And don't forget, looking at it as a unity gain device helps narrow down too.

Enjoy, keep it simple. You count! What you like matters, nothing else. May there be a thousand options, does matter little. They are only there for others, not necessarily you. ;)

Cheers,
Andreas
 
I strongly believe that we will only see B3 v2.0 firmware with a Mark II repackaging of the B3, exactly as did occur with the G3.

If the above should occur, I also predict Zoom will simultaneously release a new B3X product in the same chassis of the G3X.

The release of these new products should spark new sales, with the least development and production costs, while keeping the B3 (and G3) series thriving.

Cheers!

Ok,ok, Charlie. It seems we pretty much concur. Now, my only difficulty with understanding you fully is with Mark II. Forgive me, but I do not understand what you exactly mean by that. Refurbishing, repacking or what? Please explain a little bit. Maybe I get it then.

Thanks, Andreas
 
My thoughts are maybe a little different (it's funny because we're trying to be in the Zoom marketers brain when, finally, we don't know well how they take their decisions :)).
I think the B3 is not so a best seller. 2 arguments :
- in France (I know we do not represent the world market, but it's what I see), when I wanted to buy the B3, it wasn't so easy to find shops where I could try it. But there were lot more G3.
The vendors told me it was because the B1 wasn't so popular and they had to sell them before. And that the people didn't place Zoom Bass multieffects on the top in term of sound, so they prefered to wait that the B3 became more famous before putting some in their stocks.
The vendors all agreed to say that the b3 was way better tone sounding, but it was too risky for them to invest in it so fast.
- why Zoom would have put out the B1xOn, which is no more less than a cheap mix of the B3 and the MS-60b, if these 2 ones were selling very easy ?

So I don't know if they will change things while they already propose 3 alternative with the same kind of effects...

I hope I'm wrong and the firmware will be soon updated :)

I've owned the B3 for a few weeks and it has been a love hate relationship. My target use is based completely around the amp sims and the EQ and compressor options. There have been several times where I've considered sending it back because I couldn't tell if it was truly enhancing my experience.

One thing I've learned is the following equation

Zoom B3 = Patience

With all of the options, widgets and combinations the B3 can be overwhelming. If you keep it simple and try one thing at a time you may find more enjoyment.

Last night I used the Edit software and created 5 patches. Each patch was an amp sim (5 diff ones) set flat+ AcBsPre (for tone controls) + D-comp. I suppose I could have just used the amp sim tone controls but I wanted to have 1 patch that was preamp only. After some testing and tinkering I think I've finally gotten things where I like them.

I reached to the same conclusion as you. Simple things work better.
And the AcBsPre is more friendly to eq your tone if you use a bass cab and not a fullrange speaker than the amp sims (especially to deal with the low end).
The amp sim is more there to add some (good) flavour.
 
Ok,ok, Charlie. It seems we pretty much concur. Now, my only difficulty with understanding you fully is with Mark II. Forgive me, but I do not understand what you exactly mean by that. Refurbishing, repacking or what? Please explain a little bit. Maybe I get it then.

Thanks, Andreas

This is how I can best illustrate this :D

Cheers!

mk_ii.jpg
 
How can you determine how many were sold based on your SN?

The rest of your logic is plausible, however.

@Andreas: actually tried an educated guess. Normally, serial numbers are long, cryptic codes. The one on my B3 is only 5 digit, so I guess, I have some reason to assume, that there's been < 100.000 units sold so far. Actually, how many bass players, do you think, do dwell on this planet? 1M? 2M? No idea. Anyway, I guess any guitar effects company can consider themselves exceptionally lucky if they sell more than 100.000 pcs of one particular unit. Can't help thinking that way. Call it déformation professionelle.

@Charlie: fully agree with you regarding the repackaged MKII thing.

Ok, here's my wishlist for the MKII: Some of you guys were thinking about daisy-chaining the B3 and the MS60b. Does that make sense, I mean, signal-processing-wise? There's AD/DA conversion in the B3 and AD/DA conversion in the MS60b, and each conversion goes with signal degradation and some latency.

For me, it would make perfect sense if the B3 successor was some kind of master-slave unit, allowing for digital daisy-chaining. You want one more effect slot? Fine, just add an MS60-like slave unit. If you could even physically clutch these boxes together, plus, if there was a digital expression pedal, lots of players could retire their pedal zoo. No wiring. No more hassle with multiple 9V units....

But, OTOH, I think, musicians are a conservative bunch, feeling cozy with at their valve-heated fireside, a big rig behind them and their beloved stompboxes in front...:D

Best
Heisenbass
 
One of the good improvements due to the digital era would be the possibility to built its own effects !!

Imagine that you could design your own dirt box or amp sim, or what you want, the way you want just by playing on your computer, instead of having to learn the subtilities of electronic and soldering !!

And once you've created your own personnal effect you just have to send it to a kind of B3 to use it.

There's no reason it will not be possible in a soon future.

The analog vd digital debate has always existed, and I think that even if the 2 options are intersesting, the digital will win.
Look at the other artistic discplines (photography, filming, drawing,...) : everybody (except some real purists) has taken advantage of these new technologies. They improve very fast and are so convenient that once you're used to them, it's difficult to come back to the more traditional tools.
 
Snip

Imagine that you could design your own dirt box or amp sim, or what you want, the way you want just by playing on your computer, instead of having to learn the subtilities of electronic and soldering !!

And once you've created your own personnal effect you just have to send it to a kind of B3 to use it.

There's no reason it will not be possible in a soon future.

Snip

In some way this is already the case with a device such as the B3. You can combine amp sims, cabs, and effects to patches that no one has thought of before you and which have no counterpart in reality. The B3 offers almost endless possibilities here.

On the other hand I know this would not be easy if done at the level of the actual DSP algorithms. I am quite proficient with programing and software engineering. In addition of being quite demanding by requiring good programing skills, I also believe such programing would probably more often than not lead to something one would not like. E.g. harsh and ugly distortion or boring sinusoidal (organ like) tones with little life in them. Zoom's engineers (and of course others as well) needed also many years to improve these algorithms to the level they have now. I have a lot of respect for these non-trivial accomplishments.

Thus I believe one would need something in between, i.e. you would build your custom effect from existing components. A technique which would probably not be so different from what you have already today, when you connect your B3 to a computer and edit patches with the Edit & Share software from the provided effects and their parameters.

Cheers,
Andreas flf
:bassist:
 
^^^

TC Electronic currently has a line of stomps that are powered via their TonePrint technology.

Although I have no evidence of this, I am willing to wager that all of these stomps share the same DSP chip inside, and in some cases, they also share the same control layout on the chassis.

I understand that TCE also has software whereby a user could develop whatever effect they choose (and this is the basis for their celebrity-endorsed TonePrints.)

With this said, I do believe DSP chipset providers already have this "roll your own effect" ability along with a method to deploy them.

Cheers!
 
Oh yes I imagine that programming such things is not accessible to the common stompbox users.

No in fact I was more in some kind of super Edit & Share kind of stuff.
Like super super parametrable stompboxes.
Something that could allow you to create infinite pedal boards with splitted signals, eqs where you want,...
The thing that keeps you sticked in front of your computer instead if playing bass :)

As if with the B3 you could organise all its stompboxes in an infinite number, the way you want. A giant graphic interface !!
And once finished, you click on "create a patch" -> creates at that moment a single algorithm you can export in your stompbox.

The TC stuff is some kind of Edit & Share but applied to one single effect, no ?
 

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