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Pros and Cons of different board laminates (epoxy, poly, CA)

SpankyPants

SpankyPants

That's Mr. SpankyPants to you.
Aug 24, 2006
6,483
93
Brooklyn, NY
#1
This is kind of a 2-part question.

1. What are all of the fretboard laminates available? Epoxy, poly, CA, mylar... etc?

2. How do they differ? How easy are they to apply or touch-up in the future? How expensive are they? How durable are they? How do they affect sound? Or feel?

I know next to nothing about these treatments, and my searches have been somewhat confusing and unfruitful. I'm looking for as much info as possible, so anything at all would help. :)
 
#2
As per Michael Dolan:
Michael Dolan said:
The whole epoxy thing got started because that's what Jaco used and, well, he's a legend. Epoxy is tough and it works well for the job, but it's a mess to apply. Polyester is a harder plastic, but it is also more brittle so it will "ding" if it's hit hard on something and though it can be scratched if you use aggressive strings, it's easier to touch up. CA is hard to apply in a clean, even manner and would work best as a thin coat that's not necessarily good in the long term. Plastic sheeting is not something I've ever tried but I can only imagine it is somewhat temporary, if replaceable.
Michael
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cheezebass said:
Epoxy: a nice, bright sounding coating that is quite durable, unfortunately it's very messy and very time-consuming, takes multiple coats and a sanding/leveling process to work.

Polyurethane: I believe that someone here mentioned Master Gel polyurethane as an alternative to epoxy. It also takes multiple coats and sanding to work, but isn't such a mess and can be applied with a cloth or rag. I imagine that isn't as hard, bright sounding, or as durable as epoxy, but can probably be refinished in an easier manner if needed. Not as expensive as the prefered epoxy.

Mylar: Cheap, doesn't require sanding, and is the easiest and fastest to apply of the three. Can be done in one application. Not as bright sounding as epoxy, but has virtually no mess and can be obtained in a range of thicknesses.
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As you can see, some conflicting info here:

HeathW said:
superglue is softer than polyester and epoxy.
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FL Knifemaker said:
Crazy Glue or Cyanoacrylate is MUCH harder than any epoxy that I know of. It also takes a mirror polish. Acryglass is the hardest epoxy I've ever used worked with. It's used for bedding rifle barrels and actions. If I was going to do a fretless board, I'd go with Cyano!! On soft wood, no matter what you use, you need a layer thick enough to support itself over the wood.
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Epoxy:

King Biscuit said:
I don't know about using it on a fret board, but I have a bit of experience with marine grade epoxy. I sailed for 25 years and lived aboard my boat for a couple. Was too poor to pay a boat yard to do the work, so had to learn/do it myself.

There are 2 "major" brands of marine grade epoxy. There are others, but these are the biggies.

1. West Systems - Widely used, but not by me. Not that it isn't good stuff, just not compatible with subsequent finishes that I wanted to use.
2. Interlux
A. Interprotect 1000 - This is much too thick for this type use. Set's very quickly. Doesn't soak in very well because of the thickness. Hard as a rock has a slight yellow tint.
B. Epiglass - Mixes very thin. Sets hard in an hour or so. To my eye, is crystal clear. This is similar to West Systems, but in my opinion, a better grade of epoxy. If I were going to protect wood with epoxy, this would be how I would go. However, there are inherent problems with sealing wood with epoxy. The major being that it traps moisture in the wood and can cause rotting over time. Also, if there is any oil in the wood, under the epoxy, it will cause dark or black spots over time.

Again, I stress that I don't have experience with using epoxy on a fretboard...boats only.
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tjclem said:
I find the epoxy levels itself out. Giving you a close to flat radius then after several coats you have to re-create the radius in the epoxy......t
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Rodent said:
I second using MirrorCoat by System3 - it really holds well, even with regular use of roundwounds
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On Mylar:
bassiclybass said:
no prep needed,just make sure its clean.when putting on the mylar,stretch it out a little,put on the center of board first,and work to the outside.then come back w/a credit card and take out any wrinkles or bubbles.always work in a straight line from the center to the edge.then get a safety razor to to the trim.pay close attention that youre not taking any wood off w/ the trim.string it up and go!!
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bassiclybass said:
i used to do a funk gig 5 nites a week so i slapped the sh*t out of the axe.the mylar allowed me to use fretless on what was obviously a fretted gig.finger style gets more definition too.some technique tricks and a knowledge of eq'ing played a big part also,but very doable.got way more bite and spank w/ the mylar.it will show some scarring,but that will NOT affect anything at all.even w/ the stuff on for ten years,it didnt need to be changed i just felt like it.looks REAL cool too.Let me know how it worked. Dave Grant:bassist:
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junglebike said:
I used masking tape and plastic bags to protect everything but the Steinie's rosewood board. I pre-cut a strip of Mylar about twice as wide as the fretboard. I sprayed a small amount of adhesive on the board, and some on the mylar. Let it dry for about 30 seconds, and applied the mylar, starting at the nut and then to the end of the neck.

Flattened it out with a credit card -- it went on very easily. I was worried that I hadn't used enough adhesive -- the clear mylar combined with the adhesive gives a sort of mottled appearance over the rosewood -- appearance might be different if more adhesive was used.

I let it dry for about an hour, and strung it up. I've been playing it for the last two hours or so.

Results: sounds great! Plays great! It's a very low-friction material -- I can do fretted-style bends on the board easily, without feeling like I'm scarring it. The material seems pretty much indestructible -- unless the adhesive gives, I can't see it ever breaking down.

The sound, as mentioned in the last post, certainly has more snap and zing. It's not as woody a tone as before. With some eq, the slap tone is quite cool -- not like a fretted, but more so than before. I'm not a great slapper (yet) so take this with a grain of salt!
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junglebike said:
I couldn't help myself, and I went ahead and mylar-ed my nicer Tune bass.

Overnight, the adhesive seems to have hardened, which improved the tone of the Steinberger I did yesterday. Talk about Mwah... Wow! It's really a fun bass now, where before I didn't really know what to do with it. I love guitar-style string bends on it, of all things...
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thombo said:
I wanted to add a +1 to using mylar instead of epoxy.

<snip>

I reattached the nut, put on some new strings, and my baby is singing again! the bass is a little brighter now, w/ a bit more sustain and more "mwah," but not as bright as an epoxied board. i am quite happy with the end product and would recommend it, especially for those on a budget.
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On CA glue:

http://www.bassplayer.com/article/superglue-savior/jun-06/20674


ii7-V7 said:
On a fretless fingerboard I'm contemplating Epoxy v.s. CA (Superglue). I definetly don't want a sticky feel like polyurethane. I'm worried that epoxy will have that sticky feel?

Is this true?

What are some other virtues of Epoxy v.s. CA?
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Hambone said:
You can't really define "epoxy" as one hardness or another because there are so many types that are blended for different applications. The quick-set epoxies are definitely softer than slow-set for instance, and marine epoxy designed as a coating is very different from an epoxy designed intended as an adhesive. You can have just about any hardness you desire by researching the data sheets for a particular version that meets your needs. HG Thor down in Miami uses a very hard epoxy on their boards. It's probably the best coating of it's kind available. I use CA because of it's speed and ease of use. It's extremely hard too. I personally haven't seen much difference between the superhard epoxies and CA when the fingerboard is finished. If it's a good job, it will be hard to tell one way or the other.
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Hambone said:
You ask me - since "I" can't tell the difference why would "you" use it? I don't know why you should use it.

It's easier for ME to apply and get right than the epoxy. But the application technique I use is one that I figured out on my own and it takes some practice to get right. In the meantime, you'll make a mess of your work practicing. The West product you are intending to use is fine for this purpose - it's a common brand for this sort of thing.

The reason I like CA is that you can coat and refinish an entire neck in an afternoon because the CA dries so much quicker.
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Even if CA isn't the most durable, wouldn't it be the easiest to "touch up" considering it's so readily available?
 
#3
Not to be a dick but you are asking the same group of people who have differing opinions on the subject to give you an answer that is different from what you've found using search. Me thinks that there may be an error in that logic.
 
#4
rdrr said:
Not to be a dick
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Please, feel free.

rdrr said:
. . . but you are asking the same group of people who have differing opinions on the subject to give you an answer that is different from what you've found using search. Me thinks that there may be an error in that logic.
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Well, if I were asking about opinions, your "logic" would make sense.

However, I asked if there were more types of fingerboard laminates than those I had already cited - an objective question. ("Objective" means "not influenced by personal feelings or - here it comes - opinions in considering or representing facts."

My second question was how they differ. This can also be answered objectively. Note the conflicting posts - CA is softer vs CA is harder. That's not an opinion. If one thing is harder, it's a fact. It's a matter of density and tensile & compressive strength. So two people have stated opposite claims about the properties of CA as compared to other laminates. Also note the lack of genuine comparisons in the posts I found... Maybe someone could even explain their opinion, huh? Or do I err in logic there as well? "I feel it's easier to apply _____ laminates because ______."

If I had asked for opinions, you would have seen me use the word "opinion." I didn't ask "wutz da best epoxee?!?!" Me thinks there may be an error in your people skills.
 
#6
Tdog said:
It looks like you've dug up a ton of good info to your own question.

One thing though....lose the avatar.
Click to expand...

I did at one point, but everyone got upset... So I brought it back. Go figure. :help:

I'm looking for more information though... At least more accurate info. Is CA harder or softer than epoxy/poly? Is poly sticky or hard? Which is most durable? Which takes the least effort to touch up?
 
#8
But is epoxy something that would need frequent "touch ups?"

Does it last longer than poly (which Dolan said is easy to touch up via spray) or CA (which theoretically, you can just add more glue and sand it back down)?
 
#10
No sir... But when my lady and I moved back down in June, she got a job there. I'll have her hook us up... ;)

I'm having a neck-through Wishbass built. It's going to be 6-string (with tight string spacing) with a Purpleheart board. I already spoke with Tommy, and he said it'd be <$200 for him to epoxy it. That's a great price for an epoxy, but it's still way more than if I were to DIY with CA or something. Anyway, the Wish is going to be completely unfinished. He's pretty much just gluing the wood together.

This is the type of bass he's building for me:
Link Removed

Now imagine it with a couple more strings and a PH board.


Also - WHO DAT! :smug:
 
#12
The thing about CA that you should keep in mind is that it is very hard, but brittle.....In the event of a chip, if not repaired in a timely manner, the CA will tend to chip out more....I've used CA as a finish on a lot my work (not basses...mostly jewelry items such as bangles). It looks fantastic but is difficult to make an invisible spot repair.....I've ended up doing a complete refin.
 
#14
I live in Baton Rouge, but I grew up in Laffy! :hyper:

I plan on doing a lot to this board that fingerboards really don't like... Such as using rounds and slapping. I may consider just making a slap plate, but that still leaves the problems of wear from the roundwounds.
 
#16
Over the years I tried many different coatings be they glues, epoxies, finishes (shellac, polyurethane... whatever) but the best I have found was Envirotex Lite. I started using it back in the 90s after seeing a bartop at my local pub with a thick, highly durable and glossy finish. I asked the owner what was used and gave it a try... voila.

EL doesn't chip or gouge... it's an enigma, soft enough to be gouge/chip resistant yet hard enough to give a very bright tone. It's labor intensive to apply but it's a one time deal. The EL on the necks I still have is almost as good as day one after more than 12 years of roundwound use. All that would be needed to get the finish back to perfection is a little buffing.

Here's an old picture of a neck I coated about 5 years ago. This was after the one and only coat cured and just before the sanding and buffing phases.
Link Removed
 
#17
SpankyPants said:
I live in Baton Rouge, but I grew up in Laffy! :hyper:

I plan on doing a lot to this board that fingerboards really don't like... Such as using rounds and slapping. I may consider just making a slap plate, but that still leaves the problems of wear from the roundwounds.
Click to expand...

I grew up in New Roads and I have a couple sisters in BR, and my brother-in-law is a beast on drums if you ever need someone.

PH is pretty hard, so you may not need anything on it regardless of the punishment you give it. Will this be your main instrument or something you use every once-in-a-while?
 
#18
Diogenes said:
Over the years I tried many different coatings be they glues, epoxies, finishes (shellac, polyurethane... whatever) but the best I have found was Envirotex Lite. I started using it back in the 90s after seeing a bartop at my local pub with a thick, highly durable and glossy finish. I asked the owner what was used and gave it a try... voila.

EL doesn't chip or gouge... it's an enigma, soft enough to be gouge/chip resistant yet hard enough to give a very bright tone. It's labor intensive to apply but it's a one time deal. The EL on the necks I still have is almost as good as day one after more than 12 years of roundwound use. All that would be needed to get the finish back to perfection is a little buffing.

Here's an old picture of a neck I coated about 5 years ago. This was after the one and only coat cured and just before the sanding and buffing phases.
Link Removed
Click to expand...
Man, that sounds exactly like what I'm looking for. What did you have to do to apply it? Is it a DIY friendly project? Is it expensive?

HogieWan said:
I grew up in New Roads and I have a couple sisters in BR, and my brother-in-law is a beast on drums if you ever need someone.

PH is pretty hard, so you may not need anything on it regardless of the punishment you give it. Will this be your main instrument or something you use every once-in-a-while?
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Well, ****! You're right by me. I was in Lafayette today in fact. Is your BiL playing with anyone nowadays?

And this will be my main instrument. I plan on using it quite a bit.
 
#19
SpankyPants said:
Man, that sounds exactly like what I'm looking for. What did you have to do to apply it? Is it a DIY friendly project? Is it expensive?
Click to expand...

Back in the day when I tried to make it as a starving artist airbrushing murals on vans and motorhomes and pinstripping hot-rods and motorcycles I was schlepping art supplies at a local store for a steady paycheck... that's where I first bought the stuff... and they still seem to sell it at a decent price:
http://www.dickblick.com/products/envirotex-lite/

You can probably buy it at just about any home improvement, craft or hardware store although I bought the last few bottles at [Invalid or Expired Link Removed].

So, the 8oz size which will set you back about $9 should do about 3 necks... however the amount of sandpaper you'll need will easily run more than that. It's great stuff, but will clog sandpaper in just a few swipes. It takes a lot of elbow grease (and sandpaper) to get it perfect but it'll be well worth the effort in the long run.
 
#20
What method did you use to apply it? Just pour it on, let it settle/cure for a day & a half, and sand to fit? Also, when you say it levels itself, what does that mean? Does it settle across the fretboard's radius, or does it settle flat, as if the bass had no radius? What is the main reason for sanding? Leveling the finish? Gloss?

I'm pretty clueless about some of this stuff, but this definitely seems to be my best bet. I'm excited! :hyper: I won't have to pay a zillion bucks for epoxy or risk screwing up my own board with DIY CA.

Also, is this as volatile as some of the other "toxic" laminates? (eg epoxy & ca) What do you do to pretreat the wood before applying?
 

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