18" - why no love?

[BurningSkies]

An 18" stripper? Hmmmm....

Invalid Link Removed

 

[StereoPlayer]

I agree - it's foolish for many reason. However, speaker speed differences are not one of them.

I just threw that out there as an example since there are still some that choose to do it.

I agree it is foolish, but people have, will mix speakers. Myself included. It is OK to do it if you want, there are NO rules.

I don't care what anybody says, I like 18's.

 

[spigmu]

I'm not talking about the speed of the wave or anything frequency response related. By "didn't respond quick enough" I was referring to transient response, response to my fingers. Even with a high freq driver in the cabinet the 18" has to travel a certain distance and go back. In a similar size cabinet multiples of 12"s and especially 10"s don't move as much distance as the 18" when putting out a reasonably similar volume and sound., and it wouldn't be solved by having multiple 18"s.

If the two speakers are capable of producing the same frequency, lets say 500hz, The smaller drivers would have to move more to match the output of the 18.

Sure, but I wasn't comparing single speakers to each other, rather comparably loud cabs, as in choosing a single 18" or a 410, hence "mulitples". When handling the same perceived volume the speakers in the 410 will not each be moving as far as the single 18".

Each cab is an individual. For the same reason as every 410 sounds different, every 18" based cab will as well.

Sure, sure. But there's an "all else being equal" assumed when comparing part of two wholes before we get into external variables or we'll never get anywhere. IOW, I don't want the fact that all cabs sound different to represent to me that an 18" and a 10" of the same speaker model are for all intents and purposes interchangeable, because I can't make a qualitative judgment about them without considering that. There's an "all else being equal" assumed when comparing part of two wholes. That's all I was trying to say.

And also that I don't like 18"s, I guess : )

Best,
s

 

[CL400Peavey]

Sure, but I wasn't comparing single speakers to each other, rather comparably loud cabs, as in choosing a single 18" or a 410, hence "mulitples". When handling the same perceived volume the speakers in the 410 will not each be moving as far as the single 18"

Except not. As we have shown in this thread, the surface area of a 118 can be just about equal to that of a 410. Which is why you have to be specific, and generalities dont tell much of a story.

 

[dukeorock]

In my spare time, I mess around with different cab concepts. Purchased 4 high quality 18" drivers, not because of their size, but because of their potential performance value. So far it's just been for my own fun and learning, but I am not hearing anything I'd call 'slow,' or harsh beaming. There are some out there that sound pretty great all the way up to 3k. Maybe there was a time you could judge a speakers sound by it's size, but not anymore

 

[Eminor3rd]

Are you really asking "why don't people bi-amp?" Because speaker size is irrelevant. You can get tens tuned plenty low if that's what you want.

 

[zon6c-f]

Are we still arguing this??

I haven't visited TB much in last year or so. I love to fish too..but I AIN'T TAKIN THE BAIT ..on this old ' smaller/ lighter is better debate'. Previously, when I participated on TB with some regularity, I kinda enjoyed fencing with the 'cab-lite crowd 'and the' DB purists forums'..I WAS TOLD THAT MY HEARING WAS WRONG...that I couldn't be hearing what I STATED AS MY CAB PROVIDED BECAUSE SCIENCE DISPUTED MY EARS. And when I wouldn't listen to their dogma/ 'reason', I would be rebuked for spelling/ grammar, and all manner of insults hurled at me.. which led to me calling the zealots harsher names..EVEN GOT 'SPANKED' A COUPLE OF TIMES by a moderator!! I am even older and more mellow now...

I want the GB/ Lite Cab crowd to be just as happy with their cabs as I am with mine. It's just that when I had the ' lite-bug' I could not find a single commercially available cab ...UNDER A 15" SPEAKER...... THAT COULD HANDLE A B-STRING. Granted the GB's/ BFM''s and such probably can do it and more..However, I have never seen / used one .

In fact, my 1980's Marshall 1550 , as well as my single GC/ Acoustic 1-15 is 'lite enough'..and NEITHER rattles when I hit the B-String, so.... If I AM SATISFIED.. Then, I hope everyone else respects my opinion and I will do likewise. Agreed...my beloved Sunn is heavy and cumbersome for this ol' boy to heft with any regularity, but she sure sounds sweet and NEVER lets me down.

BTW...I own several cabs... 1) 2x15, 1)1X18" folded horn, 1 combo w/15/ horn, and 2 more separate 1x15's. Of them all, I prefer my Sunn 118-vh overall, for tone, frequency and power/ projection, regardless of any weight issues or math algorithms.

If I had the $$ I would buy (2) Acoustic 301's, another Sunn 118-vh and for dessert, a JBL 'Sugar scoop' or 2...I can dream, right??

OH, I Love each of my cabs/ heads. etc. ; each in their own right and I would have hoped that those with different opinions respect others'. In my opinion only...it's all about what I prefer for my sound. For me, it's about music and enjoyment not science / dogma..and to each..their own.

 

[BassmanPaul]

When I was about 17 I bought my first amp. 50W head and an 18" speaker cabinet, AC50 Foundation. I was in heaven! I owned a VOX!!! I used it of a couple of years and then started on the search for more "Twang". 1 went to a 15' system, Epiphone Constellation. Then to a Fender Bassman 50 with twelves, terrible amp. Marshall JTM45, with KT66s, and a 100W 4x12 Marshall slant front cabinet. From there to a 100W SS VOX amp head driving a cabinet with two 18s. Mud for days. I now use 10s Acme B2.

 

[SwamiRob]

Are we still arguing this??

I haven't visited TB much in last year or so. I love to fish too..but I AIN'T TAKIN THE BAIT ..on this old ' smaller/ lighter is better debate'. Previously, when I participated on TB with some regularity, I kinda enjoyed fencing with the 'cab-lite crowd 'and the' DB purists forums'..I WAS TOLD THAT MY HEARING WAS WRONG...that I couldn't be hearing what I STATED AS MY CAB PROVIDED BECAUSE SCIENCE DISPUTED MY EARS. And when I wouldn't listen to their dogma/ 'reason', I would be rebuked for spelling/ grammar, and all manner of insults hurled at me.. which led to me calling the zealots harsher names..EVEN GOT 'SPANKED' A COUPLE OF TIMES by a moderator!! I am even older and more mellow now...

I want the GB/ Lite Cab crowd to be just as happy with their cabs as I am with mine. It's just that when I had the ' lite-bug' I could not find a single commercially available cab ...UNDER A 15" SPEAKER...... THAT COULD HANDLE A B-STRING. Granted the GB's/ BFM''s and such probably can do it and more..However, I have never seen / used one .

In fact, my 1980's Marshall 1550 , as well as my single GC/ Acoustic 1-15 is 'lite enough'..and NEITHER rattles when I hit the B-String, so.... If I AM SATISFIED.. Then, I hope everyone else respects my opinion and I will do likewise. Agreed...my beloved Sunn is heavy and cumbersome for this ol' boy to heft with any regularity, but she sure sounds sweet and NEVER lets me down.

BTW...I own several cabs... 1) 2x15, 1)1X18" folded horn, 1 combo w/15/ horn, and 2 more separate 1x15's. Of them all, I prefer my Sunn 118-vh overall, for tone, frequency and power/ projection, regardless of any weight issues or math algorithms.

If I had the $$ I would buy (2) Acoustic 301's, another Sunn 118-vh and for dessert, a JBL 'Sugar scoop' or 2...I can dream, right??

OH, I Love each of my cabs/ heads. etc. ; each in their own right and I would have hoped that those with different opinions respect others'. In my opinion only...it's all about what I prefer for my sound. For me, it's about music and enjoyment not science / dogma..and to each..their own.

Not just in reply to this dude, but is there anything to be said for the godawfully ineffecient, heavy, oversized or whatever cabs like the big folded 18s or some 4x15 compressing and distorting due to their lack of power and efficiency, and that been a reason for people loving them so much compared to newer cabs that are more efficient? Obviously some people's taste for the total lack of highs, high mids and even, mid mids in the case of most very large drivers is something else to be taken in to account, whether that be from poor dispersion causing you not to hear it, or the driver not producing it in the first place. No hate here by the way, I've got an NV215 which is absolutely the best cab I've heard when paired with the right amps, and I personally don't like a lot of more "modern" cabs, although I appreciate that they are objectively louder and have more bottom end in terms of efficiency. They just also tend to sound much clearer in the mids and highs which often gives the impression they don't. There must be a reason that a lot of people don't like these super efficient cabs beyond simple ignorance.

By the way, one of you guys mentioned previously that an over abundance of sub 30hz is undesirable. Obviously in some genres of music it is, but for the most part what's the problem with it? I like a very deep bass tone, and I'm no EQ expert but I tend to find that boomyness tends to come from slightly higher bass frequencies. Room acoustics and all that obviously come into play when setting up live, but in general it's seemed to me that those real sub frequencies account for the real floor shaking of bass, you can't seem to really hear it and the muddy boom comes a little higher up.

 

[ThisBass]

Isn't it a contradiction that something that can't be really heard won't cause muddy boom proportionally?

 

[BurningSkies]

Isn't it a contradiction that something that can't be really heard won't cause muddy boom proportionally?

Not necessarily. Sometimes there stuff that you don't really 'hear' but messes with how the room sounds. This is why I HPF at ~35hz. It doesn't noticeably change your audible tone but all of a sudden there 'wash' gone from the room.

 

[SwamiRob]

What kind of frequencies are going on when you get that nice floor rumbling bottom end that isn't really impacting the sound of anything? It's not something that every bassist is bothered about and prefer to have a really strong low mid going on instead, but I like having something to feel underneath the punch of the kick drum. Is it a bit of a room dependent thing whether those sort of frequencies just blur everything out or whether they just shake them room a little?

Isn't it a contradiction that something that can't be really heard won't cause muddy boom proportionally?

I was meaning the kinda frequencies that really just feel and can barely hear, when EQing it seems to me that around 100h-200z seems to cause the most trouble with very audible muddy and boomy bottom end, dunno if it's the rooms I play, basses I've played, way I player or whatever but they always cause the most trouble for me. Before working with a 3 band EQ I'd always have a bit of a cut there and a bit of boost around 40-80 and it seemed to clean things up and get a bit of a bottom end that sat nicely under everything.

 

[agedhorse]

From a FOH engineer's perspective, "it depends".

Too many variables to be able to say how to correct muddy sound without knowing the room, the stage, the type of music and the tools at hand to work with.

My first tool is a sweep HPF, then the parametric eq. Sometimes aux fed subs are a help but sometimes they are (much) more trouble than they are worth.

 

[ThisBass]

What kind of frequencies are going on when you get that nice floor rumbling bottom end that isn't really impacting the sound of anything? It's not something that every bassist is bothered about and prefer to have a really strong low mid going on instead, but I like having something to feel underneath the punch of the kick drum. Is it a bit of a room dependent thing whether those sort of frequencies just blur everything out or whether they just shake them room a little?



I was meaning the kinda frequencies that really just feel and can barely hear, when EQing it seems to me that around 100h-200z seems to cause the most trouble with very audible muddy and boomy bottom end, dunno if it's the rooms I play, basses I've played, way I player or whatever but they always cause the most trouble for me. Before working with a 3 band EQ I'd always have a bit of a cut there and a bit of boost around 40-80 and it seemed to clean things up and get a bit of a bottom end that sat nicely under everything.

IME as FOH engineer I had to cope with 50-100Hz mostly. The reasons are different, sometimes a resonant stage floor or sometimes room modes is a causing factor, somtimes a band that runs far too much volume on a given premise (some musicians run big arena volumes at likely toilette rooms) and sometimes I have to cope with unbalanced eq settings of a bass guitar or a keyboard or a 6-string guitar.

If already frequencies around 50-100Hz cause problems due to different reasons then it does not help anyway to try to squeeze a tight 35Hz response to the audience because the bass player declares a demand on FOH people.

To be honest, I like the feeling of deep lows that shake the body but, still coping with boomy frequencies around 100-200Hz isn't a proper base to deal with body shaking sub lows. IMO dealing with such lows requires a perfectly balanced master plan.

 

[agedhorse]

Deep low end in the PA is not a problem when you have the skill and understanding to manage them (and the entire tone) effectively. Of course you also have to have the proper equipment, and the player needs better than average technique.

Note that I am also talking primarily about pro level PA's, and pro level engineers, this will be more and more of a struggle as you fall farther down the food chain.

 

[zon6c-f]

Not just in reply to this dude, but is there anything to be said for the godawfully ineffecient, heavy, oversized or whatever cabs like the big folded 18s or some 4x15 compressing and distorting due to their lack of power and efficiency, and that been a reason for people loving them so much compared to newer cabs that are more efficient? ..]

Please try a Sunn 118-vh. It has deep CLEAN lows, handles highs up to d# on G-String. heavy weight??..YES..HEAVY SOUND..YES+++++.

I have tried MANY..not all modern cabs; NONE ..not a single one could handle my B-String, other than my VERY inexpensive GC Acoustic.

Again....If it works for you..FINE..but don't condemn when there are MANY ways to achieve the tone we want