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1x 18 folded cab build?
- Thread starter Noot
- Start date
The whole " throw" thing is a bit misleading....
One reason horns seem to sound "quieter", or "lack punch" is because they do not have as much distortion as is inherent in a direct radiating speaker design ... those being the usual sealed or ported "speaker-in-a-box". A lot of our ears have been trained to want thst distortion, and find it musically pleasing.
Combine that with the real acoustic effects of placing the speaker in a room with all the boundries that come into play there, and it can indeed seem quiet up close while it's pummeling the back. And indeed, if it sounds like that, then that's what it's doing as far as the player, and the audience, is concerned, but it's not because it "throws" the sound to the back, or anything about long soundwaves developing or anything like that. Any speaker loses output at a rate of 6db per doubling of distance. None of them "throw" it farther than others, assuming equal input. It's an effect of room modes and low distortion.
The use of power shading in an array can sort of "throw" the sound, but there you're talking about varying power levels between listeners up close and farther out.
One reason horns seem to sound "quieter", or "lack punch" is because they do not have as much distortion as is inherent in a direct radiating speaker design ... those being the usual sealed or ported "speaker-in-a-box". A lot of our ears have been trained to want thst distortion, and find it musically pleasing.
Combine that with the real acoustic effects of placing the speaker in a room with all the boundries that come into play there, and it can indeed seem quiet up close while it's pummeling the back. And indeed, if it sounds like that, then that's what it's doing as far as the player, and the audience, is concerned, but it's not because it "throws" the sound to the back, or anything about long soundwaves developing or anything like that. Any speaker loses output at a rate of 6db per doubling of distance. None of them "throw" it farther than others, assuming equal input. It's an effect of room modes and low distortion.
The use of power shading in an array can sort of "throw" the sound, but there you're talking about varying power levels between listeners up close and farther out.
I'm not sure this is always true.
The Eminence 3015LF and 3012LF have the same motor assembly and have very similar LF response. The only real difference is that the 15 has double the sensitivity of the 12.
In fact, looking at the FR graphs on the manufacturer's web site, it appears that the 15 rolls off steeper below 100Hz than the 12.
OK..STRIKE ONE..
The physics and definition of 'THROW.'..
OK..The phenomenon exists reqardless..However you want to describe it.. you can hear..feel ...detect a folded horn cabinet at FAR greater distances than 'conventional' cabinets...[and btw..don't tell me my what own ears don't hear and others hear and feel].
UNDERSTAND..The original poster is in Europe.. can't afford to purchase a new Acoustic U S A rig. Currently W-horns are not commercially available.. so he wants to build a W-HORN..
Arguing with me does not help the needs/ reuest in the original post. Supply him with shop drawings. He doesn't need our debate..he needs shop drawings.
Other than that..I WILL ONLY AGREE TO DISAGREE.
The physics and definition of 'THROW.'..
OK..The phenomenon exists reqardless..However you want to describe it.. you can hear..feel ...detect a folded horn cabinet at FAR greater distances than 'conventional' cabinets...[and btw..don't tell me my what own ears don't hear and others hear and feel].
UNDERSTAND..The original poster is in Europe.. can't afford to purchase a new Acoustic U S A rig. Currently W-horns are not commercially available.. so he wants to build a W-HORN..
Arguing with me does not help the needs/ reuest in the original post. Supply him with shop drawings. He doesn't need our debate..he needs shop drawings.
Other than that..I WILL ONLY AGREE TO DISAGREE.
Re: motor strength....it's just thst...how "strong" the motor is.
Takes a stronger motor to move a heavier cone around than it does a lighter one.
Putting the same motor on a heavy mass cone won't have as much high frequency response as the same motor on a lightweight cone. It doesn't have the strength to shove the cone around fast enough to make high frequency.
Example:.....in order for something to play say 5000hz, it has to be able to accelerate one direction, stop, reverse direction, and accelerate back again 5000 times per second. Some "X" strength motor can't do that with a heavy cone...it can with a light one.
Car analogy:....."X",motor in a light car will accelerate, brake, and accelerate again faster than the same motor in a heavy car.*
* This is basic example and does not include things like brake system performance, suspension stiffness, traction, engine torque, etc....just like it doesn't include suspension stiffness, cone stiffness, inertia, etc. in the speaker.
Takes a stronger motor to move a heavier cone around than it does a lighter one.
Putting the same motor on a heavy mass cone won't have as much high frequency response as the same motor on a lightweight cone. It doesn't have the strength to shove the cone around fast enough to make high frequency.
Example:.....in order for something to play say 5000hz, it has to be able to accelerate one direction, stop, reverse direction, and accelerate back again 5000 times per second. Some "X" strength motor can't do that with a heavy cone...it can with a light one.
Car analogy:....."X",motor in a light car will accelerate, brake, and accelerate again faster than the same motor in a heavy car.*
* This is basic example and does not include things like brake system performance, suspension stiffness, traction, engine torque, etc....just like it doesn't include suspension stiffness, cone stiffness, inertia, etc. in the speaker.
- Jul 2, 2013
- 61
- 5
- Disclosures
- Pro Gear Manager, Loud and Clear, Inc.
In the amateur consumer gear world "cheaper" is at the top of the design specification list, while in the pro ranks it's way down the list.
As far as a paying to attention to internet sources as gospel, I don't actually know what a "Barefaced" is, and I doubt quoting their website as a reference builds much credibility to your posted "facts" about driver theory.
I've never noticed the badge Barefaced in a big league sound system, or anywhere on a pro stage and while I certainly haven't seen everything in the big league ranks, I've seen quite a few big league rigs...
Do they supply FOH, monitors or back line for any name acts? I'm not suggesting that they don't have any pro contracts and I'm not trying to demean the company, but I've not seen any in person, and I didn't see any endorsers listed on their website.
Just copious posts on this amateur internet forum and a bunch of paid "ad-vertorials"; paid advertisements made to look like editorial pieces from Bass Guitar Magazine, a publication I've never even seen in print.
Nice job of marketing IMO, but not a lot of credibility building substance as a transducer "authority".
Graphs.. charts.. the OP wants build plans for a w-horn..How simple a request is that ?.
OP has not requested a dissertation on speaker physics or which designs are superior to another...just a simple build plan..
OP..Look up Invalid Link Removed pa and speaker box plans ..that is one FREE source for build drawings and design choices for folded horns..includes w-horns and scoop horns.
OP has not requested a dissertation on speaker physics or which designs are superior to another...just a simple build plan..
OP..Look up Invalid Link Removed pa and speaker box plans ..that is one FREE source for build drawings and design choices for folded horns..includes w-horns and scoop horns.
Nobody's arguing. You must've missed the part where I said (paraphrasing), "if that's what it sounds like it's doing, then that's what it is doing as far as the player and listener are concerned".
Nobody said it didn't sound like that. Just trying to explain WHY it sounds like that, and that it has nothing to do with one type of speaker "throwing sound" farther than another. It DOES however, have a lot to do with the Harmonic Distortion that is present in MOST OF the types of speakers MOST OF us are familiar with listening to, that is not AS PRESENT in folded horns.
Tske any direct radiator speaker, feed it nothing but <100hz content, and it will give you back a goodly percentage of >100hz content. That, by definition, IS harmonic distortion...something coming out that is different than what went in. Do the same thing to a folded horn, and you will get considerably more pure <100hz content out and considerably less >100hz content....ie:...less distortion.
A lot of us hear that distortion as "punch", "immediacy", "character", "tone", or any number of other magazine article adjectives.....but it is all distortion. Some of us happen to like that distortion when it sounds good....including me.
- Jul 2, 2013
- 61
- 5
- Disclosures
- Pro Gear Manager, Loud and Clear, Inc.
Nice example, but I didn't see any reference to source strength of the program material, which at a strong enough current can "shove the cone around fast enough to make high frequency".
The biggest difference is the larger cone area, assuming that the same motor = same excursion capability, that gives the larger cone the POTENTIAL for stronger low frequency response.
Potential being the key word in my statement.
W-horns are great at putting out buttloads of highbass/lowmid "whump". Their horn paths are not long enough to load down to real bass frequencies, and that's fine...some of us don't want that in our sound. They're more akin to what we used to call "kickbins" in 4-way systems....and they do indeed kick.
I think a lot of this discussion is people confusing "huge bass guitar tone", with actual "low bass frequencies". They're not the same thing and you don't always need one to get the other.
I think a lot of this discussion is people confusing "huge bass guitar tone", with actual "low bass frequencies". They're not the same thing and you don't always need one to get the other.
Doesn't matter how much gas you pour in a 4-cylinder, it still can't do what a 396 does?
The larger cone does move more air in a given stroke than the smaller one.
You could make 4-10's run both as deep and as loud as a single 18, but it makes more sense to buy one speaker ( the 18 ), instead of 4 ( the 10's ), to do the same job.
That only applies to LF. HF response, dispersion, etc. all benefits from smaller or lighter speakers. It's why everything is a balance of compromises and it can take anywhere from 2 to 4 different speakers all put together to make a truly "fullrange" system.
Understood will33
I am punch-drunk from debating certain cult-like beliefs about speaker constructs over the years..I like choices and some like only the choices within their cab build belief system..I prefer a much broader palette; where thereare many choices; not right/ wrong or best...
I enjoy automobile analogies..
As sophisticated as Porsche and Ferarri are designed... a good old 57 Chevy will always cause jaws to drop when one drives by..
Same with cab designs..not better ..maybe 'advanced'.. but not better... just different.
Hopefully the OP will visit the link I provided..take a plan to a shop and build HIS dream cab regardless of what we think or beieve...
I am punch-drunk from debating certain cult-like beliefs about speaker constructs over the years..I like choices and some like only the choices within their cab build belief system..I prefer a much broader palette; where thereare many choices; not right/ wrong or best...
I enjoy automobile analogies..
As sophisticated as Porsche and Ferarri are designed... a good old 57 Chevy will always cause jaws to drop when one drives by..
Same with cab designs..not better ..maybe 'advanced'.. but not better... just different.
Hopefully the OP will visit the link I provided..take a plan to a shop and build HIS dream cab regardless of what we think or beieve...
I used to have one of the 18" folded horn acoustic cabs. It was a beast and would definitely shake the room. I built one of these http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/T48.html a few years and it moves the air that the acoustic did but with more mid range definition.
Invalid Link Removed the OP wants.
These are big boxes (Rog Mogale designs), and they do work.
Response charts are included on the plans pages.
The 1850 is one to look at.
The Invalid Link Removed is another to look at.
These are big boxes (Rog Mogale designs), and they do work.
Response charts are included on the plans pages.
The 1850 is one to look at.
The Invalid Link Removed is another to look at.
I've heard the exact same thing you're describing many times. I'm not about to go up to a club owner who's supposed to be paying me at the end of the night and give him some technical dissertation about why it actually isn't louder at the back of the room when it obviously is....to everyone. It isn't his job to know why and it shouldn't be. I can take what I know about sound (which admittedly isn't much compared to some here) and use it to give all of us as enjoyable of a listening experience as I can.
It's know doubt it sounds louder back there....that's because it sounds like that. The differences being talked about here are more about why it sounds like that, not whether or not it does.
To add to my earlier response....
Couple times I've had owners come up and say "bass is too much, man, we can't hear the singer". Some peoples instinct would be to turn the bass down, which wouldn't have helped in these cases. Problem was, too much woofer in the vocals. Make a lowmid cut to take the woofiness out of the vocals and make the lyrics clear and understandable, and everything sounded good, got compliments from the crowd, and got thanked by the owner for being cool/cooperative about it all and giving them a good night. No actual bass volume got touched.....ever.
Sometimes you have to sort of translate what non-techy or non-musician type people say into what they really want to hear. There doesn't seem to be really any rhyme or reason to it, and it's not really anything that can be taught. You just have to sort of figure it out for yourself, learning from many failures before you can appreciate successes.
bgavin..
EXCELLENT LINK.. The 1850 ..although not identical to my 118-vh..it is close enough. I hope the OP appreciates those links.
will33...
AGREED. I play bass...love bass but in context of band performance, I respect balance even more.
EXCELLENT LINK.. The 1850 ..although not identical to my 118-vh..it is close enough. I hope the OP appreciates those links.
will33...
AGREED. I play bass...love bass but in context of band performance, I respect balance even more.
In the amateur consumer gear world "cheaper" is at the top of the design specification list, while in the pro ranks it's way down the list.
As far as a paying to attention to internet sources as gospel, I don't actually know what a "Barefaced" is, and I doubt quoting their website as a reference builds much credibility to your posted "facts" about driver theory.
I've never noticed the badge Barefaced in a big league sound system, or anywhere on a pro stage and while I certainly haven't seen everything in the big league ranks, I've seen quite a few big league rigs...
Do they supply FOH, monitors or back line for any name acts? I'm not suggesting that they don't have any pro contracts and I'm not trying to demean the company, but I've not seen any in person, and I didn't see any endorsers listed on their website.
Just copious posts on this amateur internet forum and a bunch of paid "ad-vertorials"; paid advertisements made to look like editorial pieces from Bass Guitar Magazine, a publication I've never even seen in print.
Nice job of marketing IMO, but not a lot of credibility building substance as a transducer "authority".
If you dont know what Barefaced bass is, then I cant take any of your posts seriously regarding bass amplification.
CL400 Peavey...
HERE WE GO AGAIN..
I don't disagree with BFM's designs... I won't argue against science/ physics.
I disagree with the cult-like stance that his are BEST..as if there is no other real choice to consider ...that there is only the ONE WAY..and any other opinion/ design is WRONG
I viewed his link years ago. I liked what I read..he had deigned a 'snail'..cab which got me interested , so I contacted him.
I don't like BFM'a attitude..His reponse to my request to build a cab similar to my 118-vh..only with modern light weight construction, speaker etc. was insulting toward me to say the least. I respect him..I DON'T IDOLIZE HIM.
With that and the fanatic zeal in which some of his flock and followers respond: in example...."BFM doesn't suffer fools".. is a 'talking point-style' response if you DARE to disagree or don't blindly FOLLOW. I have read where some claim a 1x8 wil exceed a 8x10..and so on..At least there is some choice within the ultra light camp..other than a 15-6-1.. 12-6-1.
You and I have danced this tango for a while now. I respect you as well..and appreciate that you reponded to the OP with a build link..which is what he was really requesting...it was a BFM link..to which you added the caveat ..BEST.. THERE IS NO BEST..ANYTHING.
I also appreciate Duke LeJeune. He has ALWAYS treated me with repect..we have a mutual understanding..I hope one day that you and I get there as well one day.
HERE WE GO AGAIN..
I don't disagree with BFM's designs... I won't argue against science/ physics.
I disagree with the cult-like stance that his are BEST..as if there is no other real choice to consider ...that there is only the ONE WAY..and any other opinion/ design is WRONG
I viewed his link years ago. I liked what I read..he had deigned a 'snail'..cab which got me interested , so I contacted him.
I don't like BFM'a attitude..His reponse to my request to build a cab similar to my 118-vh..only with modern light weight construction, speaker etc. was insulting toward me to say the least. I respect him..I DON'T IDOLIZE HIM.
With that and the fanatic zeal in which some of his flock and followers respond: in example...."BFM doesn't suffer fools".. is a 'talking point-style' response if you DARE to disagree or don't blindly FOLLOW. I have read where some claim a 1x8 wil exceed a 8x10..and so on..At least there is some choice within the ultra light camp..other than a 15-6-1.. 12-6-1.
You and I have danced this tango for a while now. I respect you as well..and appreciate that you reponded to the OP with a build link..which is what he was really requesting...it was a BFM link..to which you added the caveat ..BEST.. THERE IS NO BEST..ANYTHING.
I also appreciate Duke LeJeune. He has ALWAYS treated me with repect..we have a mutual understanding..I hope one day that you and I get there as well one day.
BurningSkies
CRAZY BALDHEAD
- Feb 20, 2005
- 27,956
- 20,348
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist: Dingwall Guitars
Soundwaves start at the cone and radiate from there. The notion that they 'throw' differently, take time to develop, or require a certain size driver is nonsense. The speaker can't create the wave then have it magically appear at a distance and not have it exist in the interim is silly. Its a wave, it acts in a predictable fashion and follows the rules of physics. Waves LOSE energy as they travel, they don't gain it.
