Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
1x 18 folded cab build?
- Thread starter Noot
- Start date
Burning skies.. AGREED..
A speaker by itself...cannot 'throw'.. but when coupled with a 'horn' design...the effect becomes quite obvious to the listener..expecialy in the ears, chest and bowels.
This is why a megaphone works..why a Kipsche Horn cabinet works..not the speaker but when coupled with a horn deigned cabinet enclosure.
KIPSCHE.. NOW TALK ABOUT AHEAD OF HIS TIME DESIGNS?? [BFM woud probably idolize Kipsche's efforts].
A speaker by itself...cannot 'throw'.. but when coupled with a 'horn' design...the effect becomes quite obvious to the listener..expecialy in the ears, chest and bowels.
This is why a megaphone works..why a Kipsche Horn cabinet works..not the speaker but when coupled with a horn deigned cabinet enclosure.
KIPSCHE.. NOW TALK ABOUT AHEAD OF HIS TIME DESIGNS?? [BFM woud probably idolize Kipsche's efforts].
4-string B...
We may be dealing with ' FOLLOWERS of the ONE TRU WAY'... I have been jousting ....[MOSTLY ALONE]..for years with them..SIGHS.. Glad to see some back-up..LOL..
When we get to heaven...they will be huddled together in a corner by themselves.. still doggedly believeing they are the only ones there.
We may be dealing with ' FOLLOWERS of the ONE TRU WAY'... I have been jousting ....[MOSTLY ALONE]..for years with them..SIGHS.. Glad to see some back-up..LOL..
When we get to heaven...they will be huddled together in a corner by themselves.. still doggedly believeing they are the only ones there.
Gaolee
Official leathers tester and crash dummy
Zon6c-f
Yea, we're here, under the bridge, listening.... I have a good friend ( even if he's a drummer ), who's firmly in the BFM camp. We argue constantly, but good-naturedly. I think he sings the BFM song every morning when he gets up. I've built a couple fEarful 15Subs. They're loud, light, and simple. I've looked at the BFM designs, and wonder why? But if that floats their boat, fine.
Yea, we're here, under the bridge, listening.... I have a good friend ( even if he's a drummer ), who's firmly in the BFM camp. We argue constantly, but good-naturedly. I think he sings the BFM song every morning when he gets up. I've built a couple fEarful 15Subs. They're loud, light, and simple. I've looked at the BFM designs, and wonder why? But if that floats their boat, fine.
I've had a couple of Peavey 18" W horns for 30+ years. I do have to say, the "throw" phenomenon, to me, is quite real. In these later years, having learned a little about wave propagation and sub placement, I have formulated the following theory. STEPPING OFF INTO DEEP WATER HERE...the "W" cab has sound emanating from two sources (top and bottom ports). The bass player, standing directly in front of the cab, is closer to the top port, than the bottom. He is,as well as others near the cab, IMHO, being exposed to wave cancellation, much the same as with two subs being an other than optimum distance apart. Again, IMHO, these two sources travel a frequency dependent distance before they form a single cohesive wave. HATERS, Start Here> Here's where you jump in with your graphs, charts, and your color glossy photographs, with circles, arrows, and paragraphs on the back, explaining what each and every one is...
I think you are putting words in my mouth.
I dont think BFM's way is the best way to do anything. I dont own any of his designs, nor am I interested in using any of them.
That said, if you want to build a folded horn cab, he knows what he is talking about. If someone is going to invest the time and money building their own cab, but doesnt have the knowledge of the "where's and why's" they would be better off following established designs.
Additionally when someone continues to poopoo science and eludes to it being a cult, I question them. I actually find that continued allusion offensive.
If someone cant take 2 seconds to open that link and realize what Barefaced is laying down, I have no time for them. That in no way has anything to do with BFM.
BurningSkies
CRAZY BALDHEAD
- Feb 20, 2005
- 27,956
- 20,348
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist: Dingwall Guitars
It could certainly be a 'cancellation' situation. But that's not the same thing as when people talk about them 'throwing' farther than other cabs...its them cancelling themselves at short distance. Its people mis-attributing what they hear. I actually don't know enough about the physics of folded horn or double horn design cabs to evaluate what's really happening. Of course, as most of these cabs are vertical designs, it would be happening on the vertical plain rather than the horizontal, which makes me question the idea a bit out the gate. It could also be because of the way horn-design cabs act in terms of band passing and what that means for axis response in frequencies we actually would like to hear.
Klipsch.
Folded horns increase efficiency of bass frequencies. More acoustic power for each electrical watt. This comes at a cost of increased dips and peaks in the frequency response. In the 50's and 60's a Lansing 15 could handle about 100 watts before starting to burn up or over-excursion. So we had the early Carl Perkins designs for JBL pro such as the 4560 etc. What folded horns don't do is add or subtract pattern control which is supremely hard to do at bass frequencies and is simply impossible at the cabinet sizes you're likely to put in your everyday car or even a small pick-up. Instead of giant mouth horns like we've seen in some stadium systems as an attempt at low frequency pattern control, today it seems the bread is buttered with line arrays for pattern control to the mid-bass and interesting things are being done with cardioid sub-woofer arrays to get the bass to go where we want it to and not to where we don't want it. So long way to short, there is no "throw" at bass frequencies and bass waves don't need time or space to "develop". As the other guy above said, Bass wave propagation is simple physics that has been well understood since about the 1920's. Please don't misunderstand me, horn loading still has it's place. it's used plenty even in the most modern of line arrays but it's the line array that gives it "throw" and not the horn loading.
Folded horns increase efficiency of bass frequencies. More acoustic power for each electrical watt. This comes at a cost of increased dips and peaks in the frequency response. In the 50's and 60's a Lansing 15 could handle about 100 watts before starting to burn up or over-excursion. So we had the early Carl Perkins designs for JBL pro such as the 4560 etc. What folded horns don't do is add or subtract pattern control which is supremely hard to do at bass frequencies and is simply impossible at the cabinet sizes you're likely to put in your everyday car or even a small pick-up. Instead of giant mouth horns like we've seen in some stadium systems as an attempt at low frequency pattern control, today it seems the bread is buttered with line arrays for pattern control to the mid-bass and interesting things are being done with cardioid sub-woofer arrays to get the bass to go where we want it to and not to where we don't want it. So long way to short, there is no "throw" at bass frequencies and bass waves don't need time or space to "develop". As the other guy above said, Bass wave propagation is simple physics that has been well understood since about the 1920's. Please don't misunderstand me, horn loading still has it's place. it's used plenty even in the most modern of line arrays but it's the line array that gives it "throw" and not the horn loading.
BurningSkies
CRAZY BALDHEAD
- Feb 20, 2005
- 27,956
- 20,348
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist: Dingwall Guitars
I would add that modern high excursion driver technology along with the advent of cheap/light power ends up killing much of the perceived advantages of horn loaded woofers.
4-stringB..
FANATICS..
I used to own and play string basses.
In the 1970's and when I was in a jazz band, I was told by a 'band fan ' ..that ONLY my String bass was a 'true jazz instrument'. When recording, I used my Rick 4001, which was strung with Rotosound rounds...I set eq on my AC 370 to best emulate the 'jazz' tone.. Upon listening to the tape..I was complimented by same 'fan'..until I revealed that ONLY for the recording, I had used a fretted electric..HE WENT AWAY SPITTING AND SPEWING..Never saw him again...
SPEAKERS..
I never argued against..and I will always agree that... BFM/ GB designs are light.... However, I will NEVER agree that any specific design is BETTER.
I firmly believe that there is no best/better..in ANYTHING. Rather..only DIFFERENT choices that any of of us may prefer.
I want to enjoy respect and 'celebrate the diversity' amongst our: cabinets, basses..strings..straps.. effects. etc.
Believe me... at my age and health history..I WANT and NEED light weight stuff.
My wife bought me a used Marshall 1550..1x15 @ 275 watts RMS @ 8 ohms from the mid 1980's... Although I use both hands..LOL.. It's a 'one-hander' for me . It isn't made from a radical design nor materials and it sounds GREAT.
I own vintage Acoustic / Sunn which I LOVE as well as new GC Acoustic...which I ALSO LOVE.
The GC Acoustic rig cost a fraction of the price of a custom-built light weight modern design cab alone ..and it serves me well. I don't compare it to anything or any other larger or smaller cabinet. It does what it does ..and it pleases ME. If I need more volume..I use the DI-out..into the PA...and DONE.
I quickly balk when someone wishes to force ANY beliefs / ideas down my throat as the only TRUE WAY...about anything.
I will however hold on to this belief..TO EACH THEIR OWN.
OK NOW ..WAIT A MINUTE... BEER?? It's Newcastle Brown..then there's the rest.. Uh-OH..I done it now..LOL......
FANATICS..
I used to own and play string basses.
In the 1970's and when I was in a jazz band, I was told by a 'band fan ' ..that ONLY my String bass was a 'true jazz instrument'. When recording, I used my Rick 4001, which was strung with Rotosound rounds...I set eq on my AC 370 to best emulate the 'jazz' tone.. Upon listening to the tape..I was complimented by same 'fan'..until I revealed that ONLY for the recording, I had used a fretted electric..HE WENT AWAY SPITTING AND SPEWING..Never saw him again...
SPEAKERS..
I never argued against..and I will always agree that... BFM/ GB designs are light.... However, I will NEVER agree that any specific design is BETTER.
I firmly believe that there is no best/better..in ANYTHING. Rather..only DIFFERENT choices that any of of us may prefer.
I want to enjoy respect and 'celebrate the diversity' amongst our: cabinets, basses..strings..straps.. effects. etc.
Believe me... at my age and health history..I WANT and NEED light weight stuff.
My wife bought me a used Marshall 1550..1x15 @ 275 watts RMS @ 8 ohms from the mid 1980's... Although I use both hands..LOL.. It's a 'one-hander' for me . It isn't made from a radical design nor materials and it sounds GREAT.
I own vintage Acoustic / Sunn which I LOVE as well as new GC Acoustic...which I ALSO LOVE.
The GC Acoustic rig cost a fraction of the price of a custom-built light weight modern design cab alone ..and it serves me well. I don't compare it to anything or any other larger or smaller cabinet. It does what it does ..and it pleases ME. If I need more volume..I use the DI-out..into the PA...and DONE.
I quickly balk when someone wishes to force ANY beliefs / ideas down my throat as the only TRUE WAY...about anything.
I will however hold on to this belief..TO EACH THEIR OWN.
OK NOW ..WAIT A MINUTE... BEER?? It's Newcastle Brown..then there's the rest.. Uh-OH..I done it now..LOL......
CL400Peavey.. I agree in that your quote was ..'his best designs'..
As for science..graphs charts... First thing I learned about computers is how easy it is to falsify facts with graphs and charts..while showing a gain... when real truth is a LOSS. Haven't trusted a graph or chart since.
Science? EVERY 6 MONTHS.."This product..[COFFEE.. CHOCOLATE..BIRTH CONTROL PILLS you name it..] ...is PROVEN to cure cancer..6 months later.. same product causes it..6 months after that reversed again...all proved with Science. 'Science' originally proved our world was flat..everything revolved around the earth..you could be killed for disbelieving the FACTS.
With sound, I use my ears..not science graphs or charts.. If it works for me GREAT..if it doesn't for you..find something that does..JUST DON'T USE THE 'B-WORD'..BEST.
As for science..graphs charts... First thing I learned about computers is how easy it is to falsify facts with graphs and charts..while showing a gain... when real truth is a LOSS. Haven't trusted a graph or chart since.
Science? EVERY 6 MONTHS.."This product..[COFFEE.. CHOCOLATE..BIRTH CONTROL PILLS you name it..] ...is PROVEN to cure cancer..6 months later.. same product causes it..6 months after that reversed again...all proved with Science. 'Science' originally proved our world was flat..everything revolved around the earth..you could be killed for disbelieving the FACTS.
With sound, I use my ears..not science graphs or charts.. If it works for me GREAT..if it doesn't for you..find something that does..JUST DON'T USE THE 'B-WORD'..BEST.
I have always been tempted to build a “W” bin scaled for a 10” speaker. Just because, that’s all, just because, Nothing to prove or discover, just for the fun of it.
I used an EV 1x15 “W” liked it a bunch. EV still has plans available for a 1x15 and a 2x12 reverse horn or “W” bin.
I used an EV 1x15 “W” liked it a bunch. EV still has plans available for a 1x15 and a 2x12 reverse horn or “W” bin.
I say GO FOR IT.. And let us know what you learned..how it sounds.
Geometry of design should work..just scale down dimensions?
Certain speaker brands sound different...may sound more pleasing to you than others.. so if you don't like it..try another speaker brand before you 'can' the whole idea.
Geometry of design should work..just scale down dimensions?
Certain speaker brands sound different...may sound more pleasing to you than others.. so if you don't like it..try another speaker brand before you 'can' the whole idea.
In the 1980'S, I saw a 'mini' JBL ' Sugar scoop' speaker with 10 " speaker. Didn't hear it.always intreagued by it.
Still a 10" w-horn would be taller than you may expect. Probably MUCH taller than a 'bookshelf' 10 incher.
Still a 10" w-horn would be taller than you may expect. Probably MUCH taller than a 'bookshelf' 10 incher.
I saw an Acoustic USA prototype of such a cabinet about 4 years ago. It was all dressed up to look like its big brothers.
GC Acoustic has a 1-10 combo.. It does LOOK .. like a mini 361 but it is NOT.
LOOK at one VERY carefully and you will see/ understand the differences..it is NOT a folded horn design.
Acoustic USA has a '361-mini' which houses a 15, rather that its larger sibling with an 18.
Both are folded horn/ w-horn designs.
LOOK at one VERY carefully and you will see/ understand the differences..it is NOT a folded horn design.
Acoustic USA has a '361-mini' which houses a 15, rather that its larger sibling with an 18.
Both are folded horn/ w-horn designs.
I've had the same idea. It'd be a fun project and an interesting practice cab. Never have gotten around to it, though.
You have to build the cabinet very solidly but I say go for it. I love the 360 sound. I saw Michael Henderson use one in a small club and thought it was great. No other cabinet gets those superpowerful lows. They say it is muddy. Well, then how do they explain Jaco? The main disadvantage is the weight. Just Say No to cabinetic wimpitude.
